The Wonderful World of David Oneal

Horizons

Playlist Author
Are you talking about self-made recordings? I was talking about the sale of home-made video recordings. If someone sold home-made audio recordings it would fall into the same category.
Do you see a difference if I sold (1) a video recording of Country Bear Jamboree, (2) an ALD recording of the Country Bear Jamboree soundtrack, or (3) a video recording of the Country Bear Jamboree with the ALD recording synched to the video?

I don't see a difference between selling any of the three. I'm curious how others feel.
 

eyore

DLRP explorer
Playlist Author
I guess it wasn't clear from my post, but I wasn't suggesting that I wanted to sell home videos. In fact, I rarely take any video in the parks, unless my kids are in it. I was referring to those who actually sell their home videos for profit, here as an example. I was curious what others thought of this practice.
Apart from the fact that a video of a ride may be a problem legally if what you are filming - a ride, a parade etc, is copyright to Disney (and I honestly don't know the difference between filming a car on a freeway and a Disney parade although I'm sure there is one), I don't mind - although most I have seen for sale are about the same standard as my home videos albeit with some decent editing (that's saying they are pretty grim rather than mine are good, by the way).
I don't think I would buy anything that was obviously "iffy" - a concert and some of the shows maybe.
I doubt there would be much out there to better what Martin and others provide for free anyway.
I bought the sets of "All of WDW" etc and, while nice to see, they are just holiday videos (to my mind)
I say that on the proviso that they would be honestly done (obvious video cam on the ride etc). Sneaking around with a tripod to make a film for sale, I think, is a no-no though.
I think there's a big difference between a video of a ride and, say, a commercially available audio BGM.
A ride video depends on the skill of the person filming, the views they take, the quality of the filming etc.
It's not that difficult (in general) to record the audio but selling something that's been "obtained" from source, I think, is another matter.
Of course, if Disney did ride videos, that would be another thing altogether :p
This is just off the top of my head and I may well regret posting it after the hour for editing has passed............. :D
 

almandot

Member
Do you see a difference if I sold (1) a video recording of Country Bear Jamboree, (2) an ALD recording of the Country Bear Jamboree soundtrack, or (3) a video recording of the Country Bear Jamboree with the ALD recording synched to the video?

I don't see a difference between selling any of the three. I'm curious how others feel.
Okay well I see what you're getting at and it's sort've similar to saying "What's the difference between selling copyright tracks on cd and using those to dub a video that you then sell." The latter happens in about 90% of the fan-produced videos. And in a court of law damn skippy is that illegal regardless of the video content. From the fan perspective it's not as offensive because you're not buying it for the audio track you're buying it for the video. It's as shady as downloading tracks from the internet to begin with but from the online pirate perspective it's not going beyond those bounds.

There is a bit of a difference between selling a typical "live recording"(which I doubt people would buy) vs. something like an induction recording or even a directly recorded ALD recording. With ALD you're selling a direct feed from disney material just like recording a tv broadcast and selling it on DVD. With an induction recording, it falls under all the criteria i've set up for being okay under the "online pirate's code" since it's something you self recorded no different than a live recording just with a different type of microphone. It creates a slight resistance just because it is so similar to source audio when recorded well that it blurs the line between the authentic and the recorded enough that you'd get singled out as much as someone reselling tracks downloaded online, and from a legal standpoint is just as illegal as any of the other activities regardless of the fact you recorded it yourself, but for the purposes of the community shrug you recorded it live and are selling that. Clearly label it that it's not downloaded and good luck to you.
 

eyore

DLRP explorer
Playlist Author
I think that about sums up what I was trying to say.
There's also some skill required to get a decent induction recording so (to me) that makes it a little more acceptable than stealing it off the Internet.
The CBJ is more problematic to me.
I think I could accept them all however, as none are available from legitimate sources (i.e. Disney) so I would probably like to have them but I would feel much easier if they were free rather than being sold - and that's not from a financial point of view.
Doesn't change the legality of it but makes ME feel better :D
 

Tannerman

Member
Wow, that's overtly blatant... and the Amazon MP3 logo "borrowing" is just hilarious. He didn't even use a very good streaming player for samples.
 

Club 33

Playlist Author
As has been said here, I feel that selling home video and even audio productions is okay, so long as they are all of "live" quality.

One person that hasn't been mentioned in Paul Barrie of Window to the Magic, who sells both home-produced DVDs as well as CDs of his podcasts. Now while the podcasts are always available online first and he sells the CDs to raise funds for the site, the podcasts do contain a mix of both live recorded audio and "source" audio (though the actual types of recordings he plays varies, though I don't think he himself is aware of the difference).

There's so many grey areas though- if I put up a video online on my website, for free, but I run advertising on the site that makes money, than what about that? What about fan-produced Disney theme park magazines? I think the thing here is that people buy such DVDs not as a replacement for a theme park experience, but as a way to sort of enjoy that at home. It also saves them the time and cost of producing their own videos when they go on vacation, and likely the quality and production values of the videos are much better than something they would produce on their own. Basically, people who sell Disney theme park DVDs are doing Disney a favor by keeping the minds of their customers focused on Disney.

And one could argue, as well, that someone who spends thousands of dollars on equipment and software, then pays hundreds of dollars to travel to and enter a Disney theme park, then spends time to shoot and edit video, and then spends more time and money making DVDs, really has a right to profit off of that work (and in the end, they probably aren't making any money considering the initial investment anyway). Such sites aren't really competing with Disney, and go to great lengths to avoid association with Disney.

Whether or not I choose to try and exact a profit from the work I do, I definitely don't think someone else (like EAC) has the right to profit off of it. But then what rights to my recordings to I really have, after all? No heroes amongst thieves. :D

And I say all of this two as the not-so-proud owner of all of the HORRIBLE official Disney theme park DVDs from Walt Disney World that I bought back in 2006.

So I guess to some up, and to get back to the original topic, I think there is a line- and I think EAC continues to cross it.
 

Kirky

New Member
Playlist:

http://extinct-attractions-club.com/12%20L...ST%20PLEASE.mp3
http://extinct-attractions-club.com/end.mp3
http://extinct-attractions-club.com/pm.mp3
http://extinct-attractions-club.com/casey.mp
http://extinct-attractions-club.com/25.mp3
http://extinct-attractions-club.com/tom.mp3
http://extinct-attractions-club.com/reamin.mp3
http://extinct-attractions-club.com/skyway101.mp3
http://extinct-attractions-club.com/board.mp3
http://extinct-attractions-club.com/concor.mp3
http://extinct-attractions-club.com/progressland.mp3
http://extinct-attractions-club.com/ghost.mp3

So, I grabbed progressland.mp3, it's file info is as follows:
Track: 3/16
Title: Progress Report on Progressland with Walt Disney
Artist: Disney
Album: 1964-65 New York World's Fair (Box Set) - CD1 - Progressland
Year: 1964
Genre: Soundtrack
Comment: Walt and the Sherman Brothers. Noise reduction and other tweaking by Grinning Ghost, 2003.
Composer: Richard M. Sherman and Robert B. Sherman

Matches a file I have: World's Fair Disc 1 - Track 3 EXACTLY!

Go figure... Discuss...
 

Club 33

Playlist Author
And even BETTER with Disney just about to release the real Worlds Fair set commercially!
 

Magic Music

Administrator
Playlist Author
And one could argue, as well, that someone who spends thousands of dollars on equipment and software, then pays hundreds of dollars to travel to and enter a Disney theme park, then spends time to shoot and edit video, and then spends more time and money making DVDs, really has a right to profit off of that work
No, one could not. :(

You're telling me that if I purchase a fancy HD camcorder, fly to New York, buy tickets to several performances of the same Broadway show so that I can (secretly) film it from multiple angles, spend a couple of weeks editing my footage, and then burn it onto a DVD, that I have a right to sell it? :p

If I spend $20K on photographic equipment, visit a few art galleries or museums, spend hours taking photos of paintings, return home and spend a couple of weeks tinkering with things in Photoshop, and then burn all of the images onto a DVD, that I have a right to sell it? :D

I have a right to profit off of "my hard work" stealing the sights, sounds, and images that were created by, owned, and copyrighted by others? :p

(and in the end, they probably aren't making any money considering the initial investment anyway)
So, if I spend $100K printing up a zillion unauthorized Hannah Montana calendars, but I only manage to sell half a dozen of them in front of my local Publix, I don't have to worry about getting sued? Whew! What a relief! :D
 

Club 33

Playlist Author
Alright, but think about it this way. All of the places you've mentioned ban photography. So you're breaking the rules (if not the law) just by taking the video of photographs, regardless of what you do with them. Disney, on the other hand, DOES allow photography, and even brags about how the castles are the most photographed places on earth.

But what if I go down to Hollywood, and do a video tour of the Chinese theater, the Hollywood sign, and Hollywood and Highland? All private property, and much of it trademarked. All the work and artistry of other people. Or even to use your example, what if you do go down to New York, and film Times Square, and other landmarks? Certainly I daresay photos of Times Square have been sold

What if I go down to Vegas and shoot video of the Bellagio fountains, or the pirates show at Treasure Island?

And where exactly does the line start? if I film or photograph in the esplanade, what then? Downtown Disney? The hotels? What if I'm not even on Disney property but accross the street, and I photograph the monorail going by?

What if I'm at Disney World and I get on the Epcot monorail, and film that? I haven't actually entered Epcot, all I've done is film an experience that is fully free and open to the public. But in doing so I've managed to capture images that show the inside of Epcot.

And just to be REALLY difficult- what if I go onto Disneyland and I do a painting of New Orleans Square. Do I not have the right to sell that painting? And if so, what about a photo then? A video?

What if I have a reel of film I shot in 1970 at Disneyland, and I want to sell it on ebay?

What about Steve Wessen's virtual 3D ridethrough of Adventure's Through Inner Space, which he spent over 2 years creating himself on his computer?

Where are you going to draw the line? See my point here is that "it's illegal because Disney owns it" isn't going to cut it- it's not nearly specific enough. To convince me your going to have to show me exactly what portion of copyright law prevents it. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just saying I don't know what it is or what the terms of it are. A physical area is different than a show or a movie, which is easy to specify in copyright. And I'm not really sure how you copyright an attraction. I could go open up my own space-themed roller coaster in the dark with music, and while maybe I couldn't call it Space Mountain, I really don't think Disney could sue me.

And I'll go ahead and put it this way. If it's a problem, why hasn't Disney sent Jeff Lange a cease and desist (as far as we know)? Why have they really done very little legally to even try to stop what has become a market of fan-produced DVDs? Illegal trading of internet files on peer-to-peer networks is one thing, but these sites are very openly run.

And this, mind, is in a climate where we have Disney fan sites threatening to sue each other! DisLive.com got sent a cease and desist today from DISboards.com threatening them with legal action over trademark violation for use of the word "Dis" in their URL and name. And you're telling me Disney couldn't easily fire one off to any of these sites?

If you ask me, it's because really, what is Disney's motivation to do so? Such activities do not harm Disney, do not endanger any of their many businesses, and if anything serve to advertise it as I have said.
 

Magic Music

Administrator
Playlist Author
Alright, but think about it this way.
You're changing the argument. I was commenting on your premise that persons have a right to profit off of a project if they spend a lot of time and/or money on it, and, apparently, regardless of whether it is actually legal or not.

Disney, on the other hand, DOES allow photography, and even brags about how the castles are the most photographed places on earth.
Yes, for private, non-commercial purposes. Show me something out of a large publishing house that contains photographs or drawings of Disney properties that does not have "© Disney" somewhere inside. It doesn't exist.

what if I go onto Disneyland and I do a painting of New Orleans Square. Do I not have the right to sell that painting?
No, you do not. Can you get away with selling such a painting at a local arts & crafts show? Very easily. I've seen hideously rendered Mickey Mouse and Bart Simpson lawn ornaments at craft shows. Do these people have a right to sell them? Absolutely not.

Ask Disney's own employees, by the way, how hard it is to get their artwork accepted for sale inside of the Art of Disney stores.

And the next time you're in one of Disney's shops, and you're gazing at an artist's rendering of New Orleans Square, or the Germany pavilion in Epcot, note the "© Disney" that has been added to the canvas.

What about Steve Wessen's virtual 3D ridethrough of Adventure's Through Inner Space, which he spent over 2 years creating himself on his computer?
He should probably consider therapy. :D

I'm not really sure how you copyright an attraction.
Open up your own "Adventurers Club," with the same/similar look and feel, the same/similar cast of characters, the same/similar scripted shows, etc., and see how long it takes Disney to send you a Cease and Desist order. :D

why hasn't Disney sent Jeff Lange a cease and desist (as far as we know)?
I have no clue. But not getting caught doesn't mean you haven't done anything wrong.

If you ask me, it's because really, what is Disney's motivation to do so? Such activities do not harm Disney, do not endanger any of their many businesses, and if anything serve to advertise it as I have said.
So, why did Disney go after the little mom-and-pop daycare center? What was the motivation there?

Play with fire...and you might just get burned! :p
 

Club 33

Playlist Author
Alright, you win Jay. Most anything you can do is probably against the law. But nonetheless, if people do it, I don't think that makes them bad people. I don't think that means they have bad intentions. And I do think maybe Disney let's it slide intentionally. I suspect such action would only bring them negative press for treating their own fans as such, as happened with the Child Care Center incident, and it just wouldn't be worth it.

I do think people have the right to profit off of their work though, under the right circumstances at any rate. I also think that copyright law has gotten absolutely ridiculous over recent years, with people such as the RIAA and MPAA instituting policies that are harmful to everyone, in the end...except the RIAA and MPAA.

And I would remind everyone that copyright is copyright- even in cases where there is no monetary gain. If David O'Neal decided to put all of his audio files and videos up for free on his website, it would still be every bit as illegal.

If me selling a DVD of video I took at a Disney theme park is illegal, than based on my understanding of copyright law my distribution of content containing copyrighted material for which I do not have legal permission from the copyright holder would be illegal even if I didn't make a cent off of it.

So really, I'm willing to bet many of us have crossed that line already. I don't think we can point and say "him bad, me good". Not really. We can argue that what David does is morally wrong, that it crosses a line not so much in a legal sense but in a moral one, but if that's the case than we should say that's what it is and stop with all this copyright business.
 

almandot

Member
We do say that. We're just bewildered that Disney lets that part of it slide when he's specifically profiting off of the sale of copyright materials. Disney going after fanmade videos offered for free on the net might get them some negative press, but going after someone selling tracks from their own releases would be a clear cut case for the public of obvious copyright infringement. This isn't some 7 year old who downloaded Bananas in Pajamas and is getting sued by the RIAA, this is some guy making money off of selling Disney audio.
 

Horizons

Playlist Author
I do think people have the right to profit off of their work though, under the right circumstances at any rate.
In the case of Disney media, whether it be home videos, personal recordings, etc..., I can't think of any circumstance where someone could legally profit from their work.
 

eyore

DLRP explorer
Playlist Author
Copyright laws are a minefield.
Nearly everything we do in life infringes some part of them.
Fortunately, it's up to the copyright holder to enforce or ignore them.
Sometimes they may have their own reasons for seeming to ignore them - maybe the publicity they get makes it worth ignoring them for?
DO'N may generate publicity, you or I selling our vacation movies wouldn't (guess who would get sued).
Nobody said it was fair. :D
 
I guess it wasn't clear from my post, but I wasn't suggesting that I wanted to sell home videos. In fact, I rarely take any video in the parks, unless my kids are in it. I was referring to those who actually sell their home videos for profit, here as an example. I was curious what others thought of this practice.
No, you were clear. I was kidding about you selling videos, but figured if you were taking video, you might take some INTERESTING video.

As usual this discussion gets kind of out of hand concerning copyright. Technically, Disney is private property and Disney can make any rules they want. So, they could decide that you cannot sell any pictures or recording of any kind taken on property. They could even declare that no photography or recording could take place anywhere. But they don't. An example comes to mind. My family vacationed in New Mexico. We went to visit Indian Pueblos that were owned by Native Americans.And we're talking about a HUGE amount of property. Hundreds of miles of it. In order to take any pictures at all, you had to pay for a pass. You were NOT permitted to take pictures of people without prior permission, no video at all and no pictures could be used for commercial purposes. It was all clearly spelled out. No one seemed to mind. Disney could easily do the same thing. Disney has certainly had a strange track record when it comes to copyright. They skewered a DAY CARE CENTER for having Disney characters on the wall (the reason being that the lawyers felt that those characters being present on the wall meant that Disney was endorsing the the facility...stupid) and allow all the material that is DEFINITELY not owned by EAC be sold. If Disney released a statement about what was and what was not legal I think they'd have a BIG problem. They'd have to shut down hundreds of very good pubicity websites. Not good. I figure they selectively allow people to sell stuff that is good promotion for them and isn't infringing on stuff they sell.

Guy like Jeff Lange? I have no problem with him selling his stuff as long as HE recorded it all. As long as he isn't utilizing anything from cds or video commercially available. And as long as Disney isn't complaining, won't either.

I generally see no need to purchase these. I recorded my own, and certainly there are some great ones posted for free.

I see a big difference between a LIVE recording and a copy of something commercially available. If Disney wants to stop folks from selling home videos, all they need to do is post a few signs or put it on the map.
 

Club 33

Playlist Author
Guy like Jeff Lange? I have no problem with him selling his stuff as long as HE recorded it all. As long as he isn't utilizing anything from cds or video commercially available. And as long as Disney isn't complaining, won't either.

I see a big difference between a LIVE recording and a copy of something commercially available. If Disney wants to stop folks from selling home videos, all they need to do is post a few signs or put it on the map.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Despite our little debate I think you and I are in accord- is it legal? No. But do I have a personal issue with it? No. Except in cases like EAC, which just goes way way over the line.

And as for my legality of people profiting from their work comment, I wasn't referring to Disney related items per se, merely in a general sense since you brought up the topic of the legal status of non-Disney locations. But nonetheless I feel no need to argue any further.
 
No, you do not. Can you get away with selling such a painting at a local arts & crafts show? Very easily. I've seen hideously rendered Mickey Mouse and Bart Simpson lawn ornaments at craft shows. Do these people have a right to sell them? Absolutely not.
The NOS painting scenario brings up an interesting question. Some of the structures in NOS were patterned directly after specific French Quarter buildings in real New Orleans. The facade with the hanging baskets is almost an exact replica of a French Quarter building I've photographed. Could Disney be in some copyright trouble for that?

I mean, I can photograph these buildings and sell my pics, but I can't photograph or paint a pic of their knock-offs in DL and sell them?
 
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