WONDERLAND MUSIC STORE reviews and news!!!

[ex-wdi]

OK - everyone needs to chill out here....

I think that Disney Spirit hit it on the head - all this stuff is a win-win situation... Yes - we have new CDs available of the classic soundtrack LPs we all grew up with - and that's great! Yes - GG has done an awesome job in remixing, cleaning up & improving what has been released - and that's great too! I think we all need to remember that no one person owns these things (well, except the Disney Co.) - but when we grow up with something (Like I grew up with Disneyland and Knott's Berry Farm), your memories are so personal, that you can start to feel a sense of ownership - I know I've been guilty of that...! The problem is when someone acts as if they are the final authority on something, when in reality - everything is subjective! No one should get too thin skinned about this... Everyone has their own opinion, and should be able to state it freely - even if it pisses you off! That's what is cool about this country we live in by the way...

So what if GG claims he has improved on previous versions - know what? I've heard them, and they sound superior to anything else coming out officially - and that means something to me. My idea of a perfect world is one in which I can hear audio from my favorite rides any time I want, mixed correctly and identical to the experience I had as a child (your idea of a perfect world may vary). Not only that, but he's sharing them for free on newsgroups - how many people on this board are doing that? I'm sure not... People tend to hoard rare audio - so it's nice to see someone sharing so freely. And yes, I understand the need to support these things, so that Disney continues to release them. I fully intend to buy several of these discs at my next trip to the park. But I don't agree with the theory that you shouldn't criticize, ever. That smacks of cencorship in my opinion - and frankly, I have a problem with "Alternate Universe" versions of things, or adding tracks from various different years (i.e. the official Pirates mix). I just want it the way it was originally - and it ain't rocket science folks - just takes a little effort & attention to detail. My shouldn't I be disappointed in something half-assed (or one-third assed, as my opinion of the official Pirates mix is)? It can be done correctly, and that's why I'm defending GG a little bit here - he's taking the time & effort to do it as good as possible without access to original source material. If I had the time & correct editing equipment, I'd be doing the same! So while his criticism of Randy may be a little harsh - he's kinda right. Anyway - I could bore all of you all day (probably already did) - but I think striving for quality in these things is worth it. The end result of GGs work speaks for itself!
However - I could just be talking out of my ass - it's happened before!

Best,

Chris

 

[Michael Zielski]

This is such an important topic, I think it justifies repeating myself, as I try to stand on some common ground, which as Chris alludes to, seems to be quaking......

The Walt Disney Company's vinyl vaults have been opened--for the time being......

Granted, the digital transfers apparently may not be perfect for some(I don't have my copies of the CD's yet, just some of the original LP's), but some historically significant music(and some great music, to boot!) is being made available for ALL--connoisseurs and novices alike, music and dialogue that may never have been heard again, except by an extremely dedicated few.

This wonderful material deserves the widespread audience that it can now receive, so I rejoice that at least some of the invariable vinyl imperfections have been eliminated, the music perserved in digital format, and released again for all to enjoy.

......And if I can avoid having to buy another less-than-perfect LP that turns out to be one step up from a piece of junk, that would also make me happy!

There.......amen.

Mike

 

[Gurgitoy2]

Mmm, crow....it tastes like chicken!

And I want to appologize again. I'm sorry Louis, and everyone else for arguing. I suppose, I just got upset about the personal attacks on GG that were uncalled for. Chris (ex-wdi) summed it up best, and that's perhaps how I should have responded. I think I just wanted Louis to get some of what he dished out, but I wasn't being very adult about it either.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and nobody should be called an **%$&hole or that they are speaking out of their *$#@* because they express their opinion. Especially when that opinion has facts to back it up.

So, I'm sorry for being so very grumpy.

 

[ex-wdi]

Awwww- let's all hold hands & sing Kuum Ba Ya!

 

[narkspud]

Awwww- let's all hold hands & sing Kuum Ba Ya!

Now, this is a *Disney* music forum.

I vote we sing "Say It With a Slap."

 

[narkspud]

I just downloaded GG's "corrected" Tiki Room. I'd never heard the DLF mixes before.

All I got to say is "ick!" It's even worse than I feared. That reverb is nasty, cheap-sounding and inappropriate. The mixes differ substantially from what's on the soundtrack LP, often using choral or sound FX tracks that are different (and obviously newer) recordings than the LP version. The tiki chanting has been EQ'd to an ear-piercing tinny shrillness--what were they thinking? And this is what it's like AFTER GG repaired the editing errors? Shudder!

Horrid as the original LP sounds, I think I'll stick with it until they get it together. You recall I was debating GG about what quality level we have a right to expect from Wonderland Music Store, with me saying that his standards were set too high for an ultra-low-volume reissue of this type. Well, they sure did violate MY standards with this one!

 

[Grinning Ghost]

Well, geeze, even I didn't think it sounded all *that* bad! My only real quip with the quality of the sound was with the funky reverb on some of the tracks, primarily on the dialog of "Let's All Sing Like the Birdies Sing" (not the Offenbach number as I had mis-stated previously). Randy's version did equalize it a bit, but a little too much for my tastes, so I left it as-is. I simply adjust my player's equalizer settings a bit, mainly because I probably could have spent days trying to fix that, but it's simpler to correct when playing.

There really aren't any new sounds in the mix. They are just at different levels from the Lp version, but they are in there if you listen closely enough. When I made the first version two years ago from only the DLF tracks, I started out with the Lp recording as my guide, sychronizing it to the DLF version. It was a separate track, and I matched the DLF one to it, often playing both versions simultaneously, one on each channel. Except for the gong sound in the pause of War Chant, and the female portion of the chorus on Heigh Ho, everything else is in both mixes - it's just a different balance. I thought the same thing at first, but then I went back and listened again, and it's all there, just very hard to hear in the Lp. There's nothing new, you just couldn't hear it before. The Lp version has the percussion tracks at extremely high levels, obscuring much of the other tracks in the mix. And to the best of my knowledge, no new tracks have ever been added to the Main Show's audio, and it has remained unchanged for 40 years, except of course that it's been shortened (and replaced entirely at WDW, which was a tragedy).

Aside from the fact that the Wonderland version is not a new mix as Randy had implied, my main problem with that version was some poorly done edits, but the overall sound quality was reasonably good, considering the three different sources used, which were done at different times by different people. Anything is an improvement over the Lp! The Lp quality was horrid!

GG

 

[Louis Gonzalez]

"Except for the gong sound in the pause of War Chant, and the female portion of the chorus on Heigh Ho"-GG

Yes, this is something that has puzzled me for a while. When did these vocals change? Where these vocals recorded back then and not used on the LP? or where they recently recorded and added? And here's some interesting trivia: In the 90's there was a plan to COMPLETELY replace the original Tiki Room show at Disneyland not with a new show, but with a re-recording of the original. Most of the original cast was still alive then with the exception of one of the birds. We'll they DID get them all together and they DID re-record the entire show. The music and vocals are extremely close to the original except for the birds sound like old men. They decided not to use these in the end. Instead, they "remixed" and "restored" the original and that's when they replaced it in the 90's. A short time after replacing the complete show, they edited the show further as we have it now. Only one song from the re-recorded show ever got released commercially. If you are interested ( I would love to hear the ENTIRE re-recorded show) in listening to this, pick up Randy's CD Theme Park SIng-Along where you can find the complete "Let's All Sing Like The Birdies Sing" in all it's re-recorded glory. Very interesting. I have often wondered if this is were those different Heigh-Ho vocals came from?
With all this Tiki revival going on, it would be great if they went back to the original masters and re-mixed the show once again with today's technology and did an even better balanced mix (like they did for it's a small world). They could then replace the soundtrack again but this time leaving the show complete and intact. They could also restore the show elements to they original state (the tiki poles have been re-colored a bit). Anyone know if any physical changes to the inside show besides the fruits in the fountain? They could enhance the fountain a bit as the original was a bit dull. A restored Tiki room would be great as well as new Tiki merchandise. Hell, if it was up to me, I'd even throw in the Polynesian restaurant. That stuff IS becoming very popular again. I wish they sold at Mai-tais there in the evenings too.
Anyone with any info on Tiki room audio? I DID post a message regarding what Tiki material I have to see if anyone has come up with additional stuff. Someone found an extra bit of audio for me: Isolated Chanters! Anyone ever come across 1970's WDW additional audio such as the Pre-show and Barker Bird? Was the Barker Bird just an edited Barker Bird from DIsneyland or was it different? And how about the film that plays at Disneyland? How many different versions of that show existed?
Your friend,
Louis Gonzalez

 

[narkspud]

:-

Boy is my face red. I had the Mono button in when I was listening before. (I'd'a noticed except I was cleaning up the apartment as it was playing, so I wasn't sitting in the stereo field.) I think they may have applied a surround sound effect to some of the voice tracks, or maybe your MP3 encoder does something to the channel phase, but whatever it was, it was messing up the balance and EQ I was hearing. Now that I've heard it in stereo, I agree--it's not THAT bad.

Of course I just HAD to pull out my LP. (Shoo-wee that thing sounds crummy!) GG, I noticed two differences that you didn't note in your posts. On the LP, the girls don't sing with Pierre's Maurice Chevalier impression in "Birdies". And on my LP anyway, the last note in the show is a lot shorter. It doesn't sound clipped . . . a couple stray chirps even hang over past it, but it's sure shorter.

You noted the other discrepancies I could find. Offenbach sounds like it has more birds in it, but that's because the new version adds slap echo to the chirp track.

One other thing that concerned me though--there's tape squeal on the new version, especially right at the end. I sure hope they backed up all the source masters, cause they aren't going to be around much longer.

 

[Grinning Ghost]

Now my face is red. :-[ It was two years ago that I actually had the Lp and DLF versions side-by-side in the same file while I was putting it together. Either I didn't pay that close attention to it then, or I just plain forgot about the missing vocals of "Let's all Sing...". I think my main concern at that time was just getting them all in the right order. It had been about 15 years since I had heard it, and couldn't remember how it was supposed to go. (I lost my Lp during a move in 1986, and hadn't heard it again till my visit to WDW in 1996, just before they changed it, and had not heard it since.) The copy of the Lp I used for reference was a really bad mp3 rip I had found (if you can imagine it being any worse). And you're right about the last note - it *is* a tad longer. I was paying more attention to the mix. It's backwards. The orchestra is correct, but the male and female vocals are backwards. Generally speaking, the orchestra will have the strings to the left, and the brass to the right, woodwinds in the center. Percussion could fall anywhere. Choral vocals are most often Ladies to the left, Men to the right, or even more specifically, SATB - Sopranos, Altos, Tenor, Bass - starting from the left. No hard and fast rules about it, but that's how they are traditionally presented in stereo recordings, in an attempt to represent their placement in a live performance.

Now you've got me curious to hear the side-by-side-comparison again. Unfortunately, like a dummy, I didn't think to save the work file, only the finished mix and burn it to a disc. Heck, I was still learning how to do it then. It was one of the first CDs I had ever burned. I never thought I would ever want to go back and listen to it that way. Now I might... I've also started saving most all my master files to a CD - reference tracks and all, in case I ever want to go back and change something, I can do it without having to start all over again. (Learned that one early on, but not early enough!)

I still don't think those vocal tracks are new, they're obviously from the same recording session. I can't say for certain if they were in the original 1963 show and left off the Lp, or if they were added in during the 90s restoration (thanks for that info Louis!). This could explain the different ending note - it may be that the original ending had been edited together from different takes, and this one didn't use that same take on the very ending. It's quite possible that who ever did the restoration didn't notice the slight difference either- I didn't. Boy, I certainly wish I had your ears!

As far as tape squeal, I can't find any in my copy of the Wonderland edition. A little tape hiss here and there perhaps, but nothing that I would call a squeal - not in my copy anyway. Could it be you got a bad disc?

GG

 

[narkspud]

Generally speaking, the orchestra will have the strings to the left, and the brass to the right, woodwinds in the center. Percussion could fall anywhere. Choral vocals are most often Ladies to the left, Men to the right, or even more specifically, SATB - Sopranos, Altos, Tenor, Bass - starting from the left. No hard and fast rules about it, but that's how they are traditionally presented in stereo recordings, in an attempt to represent their placement in a live performance.

While in audio engineering class, someone pointed out to me that stereo placement sometimes depends on whether the engineer is also a performer, especially when mixing drum kits. An engineer who's not a performer will mix as if the music is heard from the audience, while a performer will mix the stereo in reverse--as heard from the stage, facing the audience!

I still don't think those vocal tracks are new, they're obviously from the same recording session.

Agreed. They might even be dubbed in from earlier in the song, though I can't imagine why they'd do that. Perhaps there are lyrics that audience members were misinterpreting?

This could explain the different ending note - it may be that the original ending had been edited together from different takes, and this one didn't use that same take on the very ending.

It could just be a fast fade on the LP, although as I said, there's about 2/3 of a second of chirping that hangs over into the silence. The difference isn't slight . . . the LP holds it for about 3 beats, your mix holds it for about triple that. Another possibility . . . the DLF engineer didn't like it cutting off so abruptly, so he looped it.

As far as tape squeal, I can't find any in my copy of the Wonderland edition. . . Could it be you got a bad disc?

I didn't get a disc yet. I'm going by your MP3. Tape squeal is caused by the oxide coating on the tape deteriorating over time and getting sticky. The result is like resin on a violin bow--the tape vibrates (squeals) as it crosses the heads. The actual squeal is heard by the people standing beside the tape machine, but you can hear it on the recording in the form of a peculiar screechy distortion in the high frequencies.

It flares up occasionally on your Tiki Room mix, but the only place it's really noticeable is "Heigh Ho", in particular the very last note. It sounds different from ordinary distortion--it has a screechy quality to it that doesn't match the normal harmonics you'd expect. It ain't too bad yet, but it means the master tape is going south and will be unusable in a few more years.

This is an epidemic problem in the industry, affecting Ampex and BASF tape in particular. Master tapes from as recent as the early 80s are turning up useless when producers go to remaster them for CD. There's no stoppping it. Climate controlled tape vaults don't help. Baking the master in a low-temperature oven for a few hours will often quiet it down sufficiently to get a distortion-free dub, and there are also coatings that can be applied to the tape to fix it temporarily, but once it gets past a certain point, there's no help for it. It'll get so sticky that it'll either jam the machine or the oxide will just scrape off. (See the liner notes to Boston's "Third Stage" LP for one engineer's experience with this. Their session tapes started squealing before they even finished the album!)

Just one MORE thing to worry about, and one more reason to be glad that Disney is on the job remastering these things NOW. Not to mention a good reason to get started digitizing anything you might happen to be saving on cassette!!