The Singing Harp Has Returned to Happy Valley (Long)
- Thread starter Randy Thornton
- Start date
s8ntmark
Member
I know you guys are finding it hard to swallow, But personally, I think building Small World from scratch in a day is feasable. The reason? We arent talking about Rocket Science here...or more on-topic, we arent talking about building HM or Pirates from scratch in a day, Small World is a single track attraction of looping music, how hard could it be to loop the music up beginning to end?
Ive rebuilt (badly, I hate to say) the TL2055 loop using the Epcot entrance loop and filling the rest with the poor quality tape I have in about a day. But If he was claiming to be rebuilding Pirates from scratch in a day, Id have to say..Slow down there buck-a-roo...
BTW, Narkspud, what audio program do YOU use? Im just trying to get the feel of everyone's program of choice.
Ive rebuilt (badly, I hate to say) the TL2055 loop using the Epcot entrance loop and filling the rest with the poor quality tape I have in about a day. But If he was claiming to be rebuilding Pirates from scratch in a day, Id have to say..Slow down there buck-a-roo...
BTW, Narkspud, what audio program do YOU use? Im just trying to get the feel of everyone's program of choice.
Grinning Ghost
Member
>>Why do you have difficulty believing that?Audio engineering background, in my case. Either you're a remastering genius, or we have different opinions on what constitutes "better sound." For instance:<
>>I was going to sync-up the stereo versions of the music to the Lp itself, bringing up the Lp only at the points where the narration was.? It was going wellI find that very difficult to swallow. Bringing up the full mono mix in the middle of a stereo mix from a different source would wreck the stereo field and cause terrible flanging effects due to minute differences in the tape speed.<
The point of doing that was so I could have the Lp, but in stereo. Since I don't have all the tracks necessary to rebuild it from scratch myself, it was the next best alternative.
As far as a stereo/mono mix, simply adjust the speed on one track until they match. If you still get the flanging effect, then they aren't adjusted properly, or the tape has stretched on one (or the player had speed problems - whatever...). In that case, I usually snip out a tiny portion in a suitable place on one to keep it in sync. I didn't say it was a perfect solution, it's a trade-off, but it usually works pretty well, depending on the situation. In this case, the music volume is low under the narration, and simply gave the stereo mix a fuller sound. Now that you mention it, I probably would have kept the Lp running throughout at a low volume, to make it less obvious and consistent. I actually hadn't gotten as far as adjusting the levels/fades/envelope when I scrapped it. That would have been the last step. The first step was to adjust the speed of the Lp to match the speed of one of the tracks on CD. Then that becomes the reference track that everything else gets matched up to. Then just lay in and match up the appropriate music loop from CD, adjusting the speed when needed.
What I can do right now is replace the two choral arrangements with my own, just mixed down to mono, and add some compression to make it sound more like the original Lp. They are the only parts that really are bad and annoy the heck out of me.
The idea of adding the stereo elements to a mono recording has already been done by Disney. The revised, stereo version of the Carousel of Progress (DLF) was done that way, and not very well. Whoever made that didn't synchronize the music properly, particularly on the Christmas portion and Progress City.
>The tape hiss on "Great Moments" IS awful, as one would expect from a master prepared from a multitracked attraction tape from the 60s. The hiss was awful when you sat in the Main Street Opera House and watched the show. Again, I think your opinion of the current digital technology is a lot higher than mine. I DON'T believe they could get it out of that particular master without doing significant damage to the sound of the recording itself--there's just too much of it.<
Yes, there usually are multiple levels of hiss in a recording like this. Each track adds its own level and frequency of hiss to the final mix. (However, I didn't notice any significant tape hiss in Liberty Square. When I heard it there, Battle Hymn was awsome!) I still think I can get most of it out without destroying it. I'm going to work on it this week, as soon as I can make some room on my hard drive. I'm already planning to swap out my version of "Battle Hymn", as it's a lot cleaner (and already done!). In fact for my own personal copy, I plan to substitute the World's Fair portions where I can, since they too are already completed, and a better mix. The only thing I didn't like about the World's Fair version is that the music is too low, nearly inaudible. Fortunately, I've got the music tracks separately, so I can boost the music a tad - I just never got around to doing it. I wish I could find some way to send you a sample of how it turns out, or a sample of what I've already done...
>As for Jungle Cruise, it was a 2-track studio recording and bound to be a lot quieter to start with.<
I would have thought more tracks than two, simply mixed down to mono. I wouldn't have thought that the music was actually recorded in mono, but then I wasn't there for the recording sessions, so I have no clue.
>On "Small World," you're talking at least 2 or 3 days work in a recording studio at hundreds an hour (regardless of what work they've already done), and you're still going to run into the same mess we're complaining about on the Tiki Room now--stuff that they "didn't get right." Even if they were able to slap it together in "just a day" (a 22-minute album with dozens of individual elements that still have to be matched and mixed), that's still 7 and a half hours of additional studio and personnel time that comes straight off the bottom line. And how many of those $16 Small World CD's you reckon they've sold so far? Seven or eight, maybe?<
Well, I was referring to assembling it only - the mixing and restoration for each individual music loop would already be done at that point, and it's not a complicated mix like Tiki Room or Haunted Mansion. A little too simple, really. Just one loop after another. No cross-fades or synchronization of one to another. The hardest part there is finding where in the song that each loop started, as not all of them start at the beginning.
That's what I hate about things like this - it always boils down to money, and to heck with quality or public demands. They always assume that no one ever notices anything. What should have happened is that this project should have been started twenty years ago when everything else was being transferred to CD. Then the entire Disney catalog would be available by now. Before CDs, you could go to any record store and buy (or special order) nearly every Lp Disney ever made. Most of them stayed in print for two or three decades, and then poof! All gone!
I guess my real argument here is that if I'm going to spend money on stuff I've already got, then I should get something significantly better (or a little more quantity - bonus material, etc.) than I already have, else why spend the money? At least the same level of quality that other labels put out for their restored or remastered Lps. Maybe the rest of the collection will be better, and hopefully successful enough for Disney to put a little more effort/money into it to give us a better product, at least on the Park audio. Otherwise, my money is better spent on the original Lps. You get so much more!
I'd give anything to be able to just walk accross the street to the Wal-Mart and be able to buy this stuff.
GG
>>I was going to sync-up the stereo versions of the music to the Lp itself, bringing up the Lp only at the points where the narration was.? It was going wellI find that very difficult to swallow. Bringing up the full mono mix in the middle of a stereo mix from a different source would wreck the stereo field and cause terrible flanging effects due to minute differences in the tape speed.<
The point of doing that was so I could have the Lp, but in stereo. Since I don't have all the tracks necessary to rebuild it from scratch myself, it was the next best alternative.
As far as a stereo/mono mix, simply adjust the speed on one track until they match. If you still get the flanging effect, then they aren't adjusted properly, or the tape has stretched on one (or the player had speed problems - whatever...). In that case, I usually snip out a tiny portion in a suitable place on one to keep it in sync. I didn't say it was a perfect solution, it's a trade-off, but it usually works pretty well, depending on the situation. In this case, the music volume is low under the narration, and simply gave the stereo mix a fuller sound. Now that you mention it, I probably would have kept the Lp running throughout at a low volume, to make it less obvious and consistent. I actually hadn't gotten as far as adjusting the levels/fades/envelope when I scrapped it. That would have been the last step. The first step was to adjust the speed of the Lp to match the speed of one of the tracks on CD. Then that becomes the reference track that everything else gets matched up to. Then just lay in and match up the appropriate music loop from CD, adjusting the speed when needed.
What I can do right now is replace the two choral arrangements with my own, just mixed down to mono, and add some compression to make it sound more like the original Lp. They are the only parts that really are bad and annoy the heck out of me.
The idea of adding the stereo elements to a mono recording has already been done by Disney. The revised, stereo version of the Carousel of Progress (DLF) was done that way, and not very well. Whoever made that didn't synchronize the music properly, particularly on the Christmas portion and Progress City.
>The tape hiss on "Great Moments" IS awful, as one would expect from a master prepared from a multitracked attraction tape from the 60s. The hiss was awful when you sat in the Main Street Opera House and watched the show. Again, I think your opinion of the current digital technology is a lot higher than mine. I DON'T believe they could get it out of that particular master without doing significant damage to the sound of the recording itself--there's just too much of it.<
Yes, there usually are multiple levels of hiss in a recording like this. Each track adds its own level and frequency of hiss to the final mix. (However, I didn't notice any significant tape hiss in Liberty Square. When I heard it there, Battle Hymn was awsome!) I still think I can get most of it out without destroying it. I'm going to work on it this week, as soon as I can make some room on my hard drive. I'm already planning to swap out my version of "Battle Hymn", as it's a lot cleaner (and already done!). In fact for my own personal copy, I plan to substitute the World's Fair portions where I can, since they too are already completed, and a better mix. The only thing I didn't like about the World's Fair version is that the music is too low, nearly inaudible. Fortunately, I've got the music tracks separately, so I can boost the music a tad - I just never got around to doing it. I wish I could find some way to send you a sample of how it turns out, or a sample of what I've already done...
>As for Jungle Cruise, it was a 2-track studio recording and bound to be a lot quieter to start with.<
I would have thought more tracks than two, simply mixed down to mono. I wouldn't have thought that the music was actually recorded in mono, but then I wasn't there for the recording sessions, so I have no clue.
>On "Small World," you're talking at least 2 or 3 days work in a recording studio at hundreds an hour (regardless of what work they've already done), and you're still going to run into the same mess we're complaining about on the Tiki Room now--stuff that they "didn't get right." Even if they were able to slap it together in "just a day" (a 22-minute album with dozens of individual elements that still have to be matched and mixed), that's still 7 and a half hours of additional studio and personnel time that comes straight off the bottom line. And how many of those $16 Small World CD's you reckon they've sold so far? Seven or eight, maybe?<
Well, I was referring to assembling it only - the mixing and restoration for each individual music loop would already be done at that point, and it's not a complicated mix like Tiki Room or Haunted Mansion. A little too simple, really. Just one loop after another. No cross-fades or synchronization of one to another. The hardest part there is finding where in the song that each loop started, as not all of them start at the beginning.
That's what I hate about things like this - it always boils down to money, and to heck with quality or public demands. They always assume that no one ever notices anything. What should have happened is that this project should have been started twenty years ago when everything else was being transferred to CD. Then the entire Disney catalog would be available by now. Before CDs, you could go to any record store and buy (or special order) nearly every Lp Disney ever made. Most of them stayed in print for two or three decades, and then poof! All gone!
I guess my real argument here is that if I'm going to spend money on stuff I've already got, then I should get something significantly better (or a little more quantity - bonus material, etc.) than I already have, else why spend the money? At least the same level of quality that other labels put out for their restored or remastered Lps. Maybe the rest of the collection will be better, and hopefully successful enough for Disney to put a little more effort/money into it to give us a better product, at least on the Park audio. Otherwise, my money is better spent on the original Lps. You get so much more!
I'd give anything to be able to just walk accross the street to the Wal-Mart and be able to buy this stuff.
GG
Grinning Ghost
Member
Well, to start with, I use a five-year-old iMac - in stylish Blueberry.
I don't do Windows.
For restoration, I use a program called Spark XL (in Mac OS X), with lots of plug-ins, including one called "SoundSoap".
For mixing, I use a very old but very easy and simple program called SoundEdit 16, which only works in Mac OS 9 or in Classic mode. Not a lot of bells and whistles - it's very limited, but it gets the job done. Most of the newer ones are like friggin' airplane control panels, and just as difficult to operate.
I'd love it if someone would come out with a program that was as easy as SoundEdit, but with the real-time effects capabilites of Spark XL, or if Spark could do multi-track mixing. Alas, I have not found such a program - yet.
GG
Grinning Ghost
Member
I know you guys are finding it hard to swallow, But personally, I think building Small World from scratch in a day is feasable. The reason? We arent talking about Rocket Science here...or more on-topic, we arent talking about building HM or Pirates from scratch in a day, Small World is a single track attraction of looping music, how hard could it be to loop the music up beginning to end?
Ive rebuilt (badly, I hate to say) the TL2055 loop using the Epcot entrance loop and filling the rest with the poor quality tape I have in about a day. But If he was claiming to be rebuilding Pirates from scratch in a day, Id have to say..Slow down there buck-a-roo...
Thank you - you summed up in one paragraph the idea I've been trying to convey for two days of posts. *IF* I had all the loops and narration, already restored, pre-mixed and ready to go, then yes, it's simple to assemble a re-creation of the Lp in just a day or two.
Now, The Haunted Mansion, on the other hand, took me nearly two years to complete. It all started when I first heard the 30th Anniversary CD, and I thought the ride-through was poorly done, and the sound quality sucked. I started asking around and found that many of the isolated loops were floating about, and then it just snowballed from there.
Next, I was collecting every HM sound I could find. At the time, I didn't have any restoration software, so I could only crudely filter what I had. I didn't even know how to mix audio on a computer when I started. I researched the HM, gathering every reference for the audio I could and I assembled my own ride-through, just the way I thought it should have been done (but within the limitations of the audio I could find, much of it pre-mixed from another source). It took me six months to complete that first one (in June of 2002), but it had the same problem as some of these new CDs do - lots of noticeable and often distracting tape hiss, and many parts were just in terrible shape. It was all I had to work with.
Take Two: Just about a year ago, maybe a little less, I acquired a good audio restoration program. I had also found many more audio elements from the Mansion in the meantime, so naturally I started restoring all the HM audio I had. (Around January 2003) I went "room by room" through the entire ride, restoring and then remixing each segment (one section has as many as 30 separate tracks), saving a copy mixed down to two channels, and set that aside. That took me until July, working on it off and on between other projects. Then finally after endless tweaking, I assembled all the finished segments into a complete ride-through. That only took about three evenings to complete. I made that version "available" on the Mansion's 34th Anniversary in August. In the meantime, I had sent a copy on CD to a fellow Mansion fan in another state, and he pointed out an error in the placement of the Wolf Howl in relation to the Graveyard band, and made some other suggestions for improvements. So I made the changes and swapped out the changed segments in the Master file. I also changed the tracks in the rest of the collection at other's suggestions. While I was at it, I designed a 16-page booklet in PhotoShop, with CD labels and tray back to accompany the corrected, final version of the 34th Anniversary Edition. (I actually had to do it twice, but that's another story in itself). I finished that just this past Sunday morning. The whole thing - 2 discs, booklet and all was made available that afternoon.
I can only imagine how good it would sound if I had access to the original source material.
So yes - I *do* fully understand how difficult, time-consuming (and potentially expensive) it is locating original source material, restoring it, researching and rebuilding a complex ride-through from scratch.
Rebuilding the Small World Lp from already restored material would be child's play to me.
GG
Louis Gonzalez
Member
Oh man! You went through a lot of trouble restoring all those Haunted Mansion tracks before editing them together. Fortunately, all those isolated tracks were recently restored. Would you believe that EVERY single track that has ever played there fits on 1 CD with room to spare! These new isolated restored tracks sound BEAUTIFUL. I love listening to them this way. For fun, I put together a Ride-thru and it came out perfect! No hiss, no speed differences, and best of all, they were labeled in the order they play in the ride! Even the isolated Madame Leota SFX (many!) were in the order that the loop playes! There were even a few surprises such as a Crow SFX that was recorded for the Elevator, and a couple extra sounds that were never installed such as the Graveyard "La,la,la...." For the ride-thru, I left out anything that was added recently such as the horse, and the horrible attic additions. I found out that there was never any Hat Ghost audio. And the music is now in STEREO. And I mean REAL stereo from the masters, not faked. Needless to say, it's like night and day compared to the 30th CD.
BTW, I just recently did the same thing for Pirates, and Inner Space. Great to have those nice sounding isolated masters!
BTW, I just recently did the same thing for Pirates, and Inner Space. Great to have those nice sounding isolated masters!
Just my 2 euros... I mean... my two cents!
I second Grinning Ghost in his "demanding opinion".
The Disney product would not be what it is if Walt had not been demanding: he strived for quality...
We -- I -- don't want cd versions of the "old" Disneyland Lps at "any" price -- mainly at 16 bucks!!! -- if the sound quality is not there, EVEN if most buyers won't notice or care; it's not what we expect from Disney....
No more than what has happened to DC-88 SPACELINER at the music store on Main Street!
This is NOT professional and we sure have to be "demanding": Disney has the money, the qualification and the time.... and Randy is not to blame for those shortcomings...
Just my two pennies!
I second Grinning Ghost in his "demanding opinion".
The Disney product would not be what it is if Walt had not been demanding: he strived for quality...
We -- I -- don't want cd versions of the "old" Disneyland Lps at "any" price -- mainly at 16 bucks!!! -- if the sound quality is not there, EVEN if most buyers won't notice or care; it's not what we expect from Disney....
No more than what has happened to DC-88 SPACELINER at the music store on Main Street!
This is NOT professional and we sure have to be "demanding": Disney has the money, the qualification and the time.... and Randy is not to blame for those shortcomings...
Just my two pennies!
Grinning Ghost
Member
Well, my observations are based only on three CDs. My quips apply only to those made from actual ride audio. If the others that were only studio-made Lps turn out anything like the Jungle Cruise, which was a studio recording, with no ride audio - they should sound fantastic.
GG
>>>As for Jungle Cruise, it was a 2-track studio recording and bound to be a lot quieter to start with.<
I would have thought more tracks than two, simply mixed down to mono.? I wouldn't have thought that the music was actually recorded in mono, but then I wasn't there for the recording sessions, so I have no clue.>The Disney product would not be what it is if Walt had not been demanding: he strived for quality...
I would have thought more tracks than two, simply mixed down to mono.? I wouldn't have thought that the music was actually recorded in mono, but then I wasn't there for the recording sessions, so I have no clue.>The Disney product would not be what it is if Walt had not been demanding: he strived for quality...
Grinning Ghost
Member
I have heard of the existence of such a disc, but alas - I have been unable to obtain a copy. :-[ I've heard all about the extras and alternate takes on it as well. I believe that a few of the tracks I have came from it. (I did not include them all in the 34th Anniversary set, but edited down versions of a couple were used.)
I have my entire collection of just the HM tracks on one disc, but for the 34th Anniversary set, I chose to include some things from Haunted Mansion Holiday, Phantom Manor (recording sessions) and the Story & Song Lp (Cleaned up and enhanced, but still only from the 1998 cassette).
Grinning Ghost
Member
I think I have both of those on my hard drive. I'll have to check it out, but I do believe you are right. They are, for the most part, the same recording, one with Jiminy and one without. Only listened to them once, so I didn't realize that it was the same music for the Jungle Cruise.
No need to disagree. I agree completely. My only gripe was with those made from Park audio (at least what I've heard so far). I want to hear them rebuilt exactly as they were, but without all the noise, and in stereo where available. I'm very particular about that kind of detail. For my Haunted Mansion project, I didn't have Madame Leota's spiel at first. I was stuck using the Lp version. Fortunately, someone gave me a copy from Eleanor Audley's original recording session, with the extra verses. When I went to duplicate the ride edit, I discovered that there were additional edits to the spiel that I hadn't noticed. Some words had been shortened, while others had been extended. There is also a really bad pop in the middle of one verse, which must be in the original tape (like the pop that's still audible in the Foyer Organ - it's in the original tape) and had been edited out in the final version. I spent an entire day duplicating the original ride version, until it was just right. I defy anyone to be able to tell that it's not the original ride loop!
Right again. That's the problem here - they didn't use quality copies of the ride audio to use on the Lps from the start, and these CDs just make it even worse. Flaws that you could ignore before are now front-and-center. In Great Moments, I found my attention zooming in on the tape hiss, rather than enjoying the recording itself.
GG
Robert Hollowood
Member
Randy,
Great to see you back on the board again. Also fantastic is that there are so many releases in the pipeline after a near-drought for a couple of years. Looking greatly forward to busting the bank and collecting mass titles. Are there plans...when the Sounds of Disneyland cd's start to come along...to eliminate the Anniversary CD's done for the Haunted Mansion and Pirates and have the New Orleans Square CD feature new mixes with better fidelity?
Great to see you back on the board again. Also fantastic is that there are so many releases in the pipeline after a near-drought for a couple of years. Looking greatly forward to busting the bank and collecting mass titles. Are there plans...when the Sounds of Disneyland cd's start to come along...to eliminate the Anniversary CD's done for the Haunted Mansion and Pirates and have the New Orleans Square CD feature new mixes with better fidelity?
Wow, I go a few months without checking the Internet because I've been busy and things seemed kind of slow, and almost miss hearing some of the best Disney music news EVER!!!!
Maybe I should do this more often and more good stuff will keep happening
The Tiki Birds and Country Bears on CD, OFFICIALLY, at LONG LAST!!!!!
And available through MAIL ORDER, too, so I don't have to spend three days driving to Anaheim and three days driving home!
And the icing on the cake is that this is just the tip of the iceberg, with more to come!
And it looks like this system is also keeping the Classic Soundtracks available, as I noticed some of them have been getting hard to find at retail outlets again.
I would personally like to thank Randy and everyone else who made my longtime dream of getting the Enchanted Tiki Room and the Country Bear Jamboree soundtracks available on CD a REALITY!!!!
Christmas came early this year!!!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
David
Maybe I should do this more often and more good stuff will keep happening
The Tiki Birds and Country Bears on CD, OFFICIALLY, at LONG LAST!!!!!
And available through MAIL ORDER, too, so I don't have to spend three days driving to Anaheim and three days driving home!
And the icing on the cake is that this is just the tip of the iceberg, with more to come!
And it looks like this system is also keeping the Classic Soundtracks available, as I noticed some of them have been getting hard to find at retail outlets again.
I would personally like to thank Randy and everyone else who made my longtime dream of getting the Enchanted Tiki Room and the Country Bear Jamboree soundtracks available on CD a REALITY!!!!
Christmas came early this year!!!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;DDavid
Steve Carras
Member
[attachment deleted by admin]
Steve Carras
Member
By the way, that avatar is of Courtney Thorne-Smith of Disnery/Touchstone's ACCORDING TO JIM and previously of FOX's ALLY McBEAL and MELROSE PLACE earlier.
