Should the characters sing again?

Tink

Member
As I've said in the "DJ Stitch" thread, I don't think having characters sing or not sing is what makes a movie good, bad, innovative or original. If the story is appropriate for "Broadway-style" music, then by all means- have it and have lots of it. But looking at "Lilo and Stitch" (at least the trailers), it doesn't look like the type of film I'd want to have the characters breaking into song during. That being said, however, if they don't plan on using "Broadway-style" music, the background score does need to be up to Disney standards. And the plot and art-direction of the film need to be strong enough to be keep the audience interested. After all, as an film-studies professor was so fond of beating into students minds- "It's the story, stupid! ;)

Tink
 

Dirk

Member
I'll try to combine some of the aspects of music in animated Disney features that came up in the latest posts with another post regarding the original question wether characters should sing again...

Should they? YES - in every animated Disney feature? NO - some stories / features just long for characters singing while others just don't fit the approach of a musical show.

But: the (animated) musical feature has always been one of the core products of Disney cartering huge parts of its core audience. Disney clearly admits that if you look at these terrible direct to video sequels. They are ment to be produced cheap still attract the biggest possible audience and make a lot of money. Getting songwriters to compose songs for a direct to video release on top of another composer for the score and then also spend additional money on recording these songs (which in the case of most direct-to-video releases aren't released on CD later on where one could earn some extra money with the already produced recording) does definitely increase the cost of these direct-to-video-releases. Why are they doing this for products which are meant to be cheap features to make money? There can be only one answer: because the audience wants it.
So if the audience wants it there someone please tell how could Disney believe that the theater-audience is that much different, in fact the direct-to-video-release-buyer usually is also the one going to see the movies on the big screen. But then this means: people would like to see an animated musical featur there too!

In the end I think it can't be in the interest of us, as Disney music fans, or of the animators to make every animated Disney feature a musical (as this would annoy quiet a few Disney fans and customers) but there should be a healthy number of them. And currently they are just missing. Just as there was a string of musical-only features earlier there is now a string of non-musical-features and both strings can only harm the company and get them to loose certain parts of your company.
For me the secret (which Disney did not yet find) would be a better mix of the different types of animated features (and why only animated features? Maybe Disney should get back on the bandwagon of live action musical features too which has just been revived by "Moulin Rouge"?!).


If Disney does want to keep animated musical featurs coming and impress the audience for sure they do need to have a diversity of composers / songwriters in this section too. Even so I do love the work of Alan Menken I still admit that there is a kind of common style to all his works and it would be refreshing to see a true animated musical feature by someone else again. Alan Menken basically had its big break-through thanks to Disney (even so "The little Shop of Horrors" was a classic before already). So to get more diversity in this area and to find new talents (which would also help the bottom line as an unknown songwriter will be cheaper than an Alan Menken) the direct to video releases could be a kind of testing ground for new talents. Unfortunately I don't see that they are used this way. Instead of giving songwriters the opportunity to show wether they are able to pull such a big project they are only allowed to supply one or two songs out of a bigger number which results in a strnage mix missing the uniting feeling. Yep it might be more secure or cheaper now but in the long term this also means you have to find another way to get your next Alan Menken and this kind of composer is not running around with a sign on the head "I'm the next Alan Menken". What will Disney do when Alan Menken retires or ends his contract? Currently there is no songwriter for a musical who would really be dedicated to Disney. Yep Phil Collins did a surprising could work for Tarzan and Sting may have worked wonders for TENG if he would have been allowed to use all his songs with the original storyline, but these pop-stars are exceptions and I don't think you get them cheap...


And to come to the instrumental scores of recent Disney releases: it is interesting to note that three major releases in a short period of time are scored by the same composer - is this Newton-Howard Disney's Alan menken of scores? I don't know - I just wanted to point out how much he is doing for Disney animated feature (and I think he did work on some live action movies of the Walt Disney Companies many labels too).
This "long term" involvement at least gave him a chance to grow - at least in my mind. While I thought that the Dinosaur soundtrack was just plain boring and missing a common theme (not to speak of certain parts which more or less reminded me of other scores) I did love the score he did for Atlantis. Really great and I still listen to it now and then...

Animated features with a pop theme song for the end-titles (which coems in handy for the pop-label of the company) certainly lend itself for certain storylines better than a musical but I do have to admit that these instrumental scores while they can be great in the movie (as in Atlantis) are usually forgotten by the audience the moment they leave the theater only a small number of fans is really interested in them... which once again is a good point for mixing the two types of animated features as musical features open a whole new world of ways to earn money later on with soundtrack CDs, best of CDs, cover versions, ...



Yours
Dirk



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Hiya Dirk!

For me the secret (which Disney did not yet find) would be a better mix of the different types of animated features

Absolutely! I am only so vehement about the need for characters to sing again because of the recent dirth of animated musicals. :D

Maybe Disney should get back on the bandwagon of live action musical features too which has just been revived by "Moulin Rouge"?!).

Absolutely true again! What was the last Disney live-action musical? Newsies (another Menken project!) Lets crank up the machine and show Hollywood--much like Baz Luhrman did with Moulin Rouge that--to paraphrase Field of Dreams--"if they film it, they will come." I think the public WILL support musicals. It will be very interesting to see what happens with the upcoming film version of Ebb & Kander's Chicago. ???
 
Thank you, Dirk, for taking the time to cover a number of different areas, and keep an important discussion going! Interesting point concerning the fact that the direct-to-video releases have been deemed appropriate for accompanying songs--my 12 year old son(with an amazing ear for music) made this same observation a while back! I'm still not quite sure why this has been the case, for as you pointed out, they're made for basically the same audience who saw the original film! But as you also allude to, economics is the "force of evil" that drives much of what goes on at Disney, and unfortunately, the world in general. Could it be the "Economics 101" concept that if less money is spent on the actual animated story, then there will be "a little left over" to devote to a song-producing team? I'm not privy to the real answer. But it's that "economic artistry" that makes me wonder what was the actual driving force behind the selection of the musical theme for this summer's Disney animated release. Why couldn't they have taken advantage of the rich musical heritage of Hawaii and focused on an ORIGINAL Hawaiian "roots music"-based collection of songs--artists like Paul Simon and Ry Cooder have been quite successful with a concept like that in recent years! It was just an idea that popped into my head yesterday--but creating any type of new songs might have pushed the budget, and using pre-made pop-rock songs might leave more dollars in the pot to allot to the production of Lilo and Stitch surf and cabana wear! I just have to stop pre-judging the film! And again, not every release may need a song base, it just seems that in the wake of some not-so-successful films, a return to Disney's musical roots might not be a bad idea! Michael Zielski. P. S. You're right, Dirk, about some of Sting's songs unfortunately getting hosed--Eartha Kitt offered a great song to add to the villain's archive!
 

David S.

Member
Should the characters sing again?

As far as my own personal taste is concerned, I would have to say (considering the human voice is my favorite instrument) absolutely and emphatically, YES!!!

As I've probably stated more than once on the "old" board, the catchy, original, uniquely magical Disney songs are an extremely integral and important part of the "magic" for me, both in the films AND in the parks.

The tradition of having original songs in the full length animated features dates all the way back to the very first (Snow White). And the history of the parks is rich with famous Disney anthems as well, the most famous being "The Tiki Tiki Room", "It's A Small World", "Yo Ho", and more recently "One Little Spark" - to name just a few ORIGINAL songs written specifically for their attractions.

I agree that lately it seems that coming up with original songs for the films and park attractions to carry on this great Disney musical tradition has not been the priority that it has been in the past.

As a Disney fan, but also as a Disney MUSIC fan who really enjoys the ORIGINAL SONGS from the films and parks, I would like to see this change.

My original response to this thread was originally going to be much longer, but I don't think I can say it any better than what has already been said in this thread, and ESPECIALLY by Robert Sherman in the quote below:

"Walt understood that a song is what people carry away with them. People can go to a Disney picture or park and be enchanted by it, but when they go home, the song is what they keep."

- Robert Sherman
 
Thank you, David, for reminding us once again of the opinion of someone, who, with his brother, helped form the foundation of Walt Disney's musical heritage. Who else's insight into this topic would be more appropriate to round out the discussion and recommend to us whether the characters themselves should sing or not? Oh yes, one other person--"There's terrific power to music. You can run any of these pictures and they'd be dragging and boring, but the minute you put music behind them, they have a life and vitality they don't get any other way."--Walt Disney. Michael Z.
 

Tink

Member
Thank you David AND Michael, for pointing out that, even if we disagree on the style of music used in Disney films, we can all agree that they still need great music. The "who sings" and "what style" is, to me, less important as long as they have top-notch music that fits the overall theme of the film.

Tink
 
Great point! It IS always GREAT music that we want! My wife reminded me yesterday that for many children, my 12 year old son included, some of their first introduction to the wonders of music may sometimes be through Disney's magnificent film scores and, of course, THOSE SONGS! The Walt Disney Company should have a firm commitment to Walt's enduring vision, and to the children, young and old, to continue the grand musical tradition we have come to expect, and to always set the highest musical standards. The Sherman brothers note Walt Disney's guiding principles for song writing in "Walt's Time": "Is it necessary to the story? Will people care about the characters? Is something interesting always happening up there on the screen? What's fresh about it? What's different about it?" They also note: "And above all, "Is it in good taste?" " They also say: "Walt really understood the magic of a song, about how sometimes a song can say so much more than words alone." I only hope that the magical musical tradition of fresh, new songs, at times voiced by the characters, can at some point be continued. Michael Zielski.
 
IMHO The Disney Characters will sing again when we get back to Great Disney Characters. Tarzan and the Pixar releases excluded, the recent OST's have been fairly forgetable.

Just as all things Disney are currently over exposed, and hence has a negative knee jerk response from the public, the Broadway musical formula would be roundly panned. Surely if the Mouse had continually cranked out animated musicals over the past 5 years they would have gone the way of The Swan princess.

The run of the Second Golden Age of Animation from Little Mermaid to Hunchback was stellar. Mulan and Hercules had there differing styles and storylines, but it seemed when a film didn't make Lion King money then it just couldn't be considered a Hit. Too bad. Now with layoffs and cutbacks and TV quality animation together with direct to video cr*p churned out in Third World sweatshops.. I wonder why the characters have little to sing about? There is very little about the company that says Risk-Taking-Genius-Driven-to-create-quality-a-legacy-and-Heritage-equal- to-our-founders- name!

Maybe they can make a film based on Paradise Pier..Nah..They can't buy it off the shelf!
Happy 100th Walt. :(
(end of rant)

PS
Too bad Disney didn't back Lord of the Rings through Miramax. too cheap=no vision. Now that is a Fantasy film! .. killer score too.
 
IMHO The Disney Characters will sing again when we get back to Great Disney Characters. Tarzan and the Pixar releases excluded, the recent OST's have been fairly forgetable.
I agree.

Just as all things Disney are currently over exposed, and hence has a negative knee jerk response from the public, the Broadway musical formula would be roundly panned. Surely if the Mouse had continually cranked out animated musicals over the past 5 years they would have gone the way of The Swan princess.
I disagree.

Quality wins out. Were we tired of Disney musicals after Snow White, Dumbo, Pinocchio, Fantasia, etc? Jeff, I'm not saying EVERY Disney movie should be an animated musical, but why stop altogether for such a long period of time. Mix 'em up. Keep 'em coming. I know you are down right now on Disney quality--as am I. But the formula for success is so close--so current--that the WDC doesn't have to look far to realize its goal. Also our goal--of quality Disney animated musicals.
 
Jeff, I agree--"The run of the Second Golden Age of Animation from Little Mermaid to Hunchback was stellar"--so isn't it about time to back-pedal to that "formula," even though I don't like reducing true artistry to mere "formula"? Look at the past few summers--I think the audiences will be ready. And Mike, I agree with you in disagreeing with Jeff(got that?)--I think that when a movie achieves the musical quality of the films of "The Second Golden Age," that even the sometimes fickle public will be ready and waiting, and will recognize it and rejoice in the fact that "Disney is back, doing what it does best"--on occasion! Audiences readily added Mermaid, Beast, Aladdin, and Lion King to the legion of classics--and they're still flocking to "The Voyage of the Little Mermaid" at Disney-MGM Studios in Florida--the appetite is there--time to give'em what they really, really want! Michael Zielski.
 
Just remember guys..
that it took a few years to have a public that was eager for a Disney Musical...say the difference between Mary Poppins and Little Mermaid - 20 years!

I'm not saying what I would like....I would like Alan Menken to go on writing scores forever.
But John Q Public didn't respond to Pocahantas, HOND, and Mulan with the same gusto as previously. Hence the stigma of "the formula is not working"
I wish it were not so.
 

Dirk

Member
HI Jeff,

unfortunately the public didn't respond as expected to Mulan & Co. - the question here is only wether the WDC had the appropriate answer. Somehow I doubt that they really asked the audience wether teh songs were the problems. I somehow have the feeling that the songs were just the scapegoat - and a good scapegoat as you not only save money but not getting all new songs and score composed for each movie but you are also not having the problem of creatives fleeing the studios as Alan Menken was bound to stay with the WDC thanks to his contract.



Yours
Dirk



--- Join the Magic at http://www.dlp.info !...
 
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