Thanks to all of the folks who have participated in this discussion. I have learned a tremendous amount!!
wedroy1923
wedroy1923
OT: USB turntables
- Thread starter wedroy1923
- Start date
Experiment_626
New Member
While I'm sure the difference does exist, I have to wonder how many people have playback equipment that's sufficiently high-end to make the difference audible, trained ear or no ...
SSB
The Trout
Member
I had a $100 Denon turntable with a built-in preamp and cart. It sounded meh. I then ended up with a Rega P2, a Audio Technica 440MLa cart, and a PS Audio II preamp. It was about a $400 investment all told (since the preamp and turntable were vintage). I could tell the difference like night and day between the two setups on computer speakers or my $50 headphones.
makeminemusic
Member
Thanks Trout and others 
. Great discussion and outstanding point about cleaning the vinyl!!
Curious as to what Disney vinyls others may be currently or recently recording? I just finished Pete's Dragon, Capital SW-11704 and also Walt Disney present A Nature Guide DQ1300. I know Pete's is out on CD, but hey I have the vinyl already.
. Great discussion and outstanding point about cleaning the vinyl!!Curious as to what Disney vinyls others may be currently or recently recording? I just finished Pete's Dragon, Capital SW-11704 and also Walt Disney present A Nature Guide DQ1300. I know Pete's is out on CD, but hey I have the vinyl already
.
The Trout
Member
There used to be tons of stuff exclusive to vinyl, but Randy is slowly narrowing that gap. Too bad I refuse to buy from iTunes...
Most of the stuff I needledrop are pop/rock albums that have superior mastering on vinyl than on CD. I do love playing with Disney Records, though, especially the mono records in the 3000 and 4000 series (ie, the semi-rare awesome ones). I'm still trying to find an original "Walt Disney Takes You To Disneyland," because the shiny new copy that came with the Musical History of Disneyland is TERRIBLE. The vinyl is dead quiet, but the master they pressed the record with is digital and has been HEAVILY no-noised - side two in particular is riddled with digital artifacts and "fish-tankiness." I'd really like to see how an original copy from the 50s stacks up against it.
Vintage Disney vinyl often sounds killer, though. I loooooove the Epcot soundtrack. The Official Album of Disneyland and WDW is about half and half, though - you can tell it was pulled from a variety of sources (most probably copy tapes) because certain tracks sound terrible while others sound fantastic.
Since I'm being a negative nelly (praising things just isn't as much fun), Ovation's "The Magical Music of Walt Disney" *looks* awesome because it has some rare material, but - as the liner notes state - almost everything is taken from the original 35mm film for the movies, NOT from the masters for the music itself. So what you get is what you hear in the films themselves - the music sounds medicore (movie film is NOT high fidelity, as the Fantasia soundtrack aptly proves), and it comes complete with dialog and sound effects to boot. Ugh. If I wanted something that sounded like this, I could just record my DVDs - and they'd probably sound BETTER.
You should also avoid the picture discs that were pressed in the 80s, unless you're just a hardcore collector. They were electronically processed from mono into "fake stereo" and sound terrible. God forbid they just leave it as mono - if it was mastered that way, leave it that way. Lots of mono recordings kick serious booty. If you really want the classic soundtracks on vinyl, the heavy duty originals in the 4000 series are the way to go, but they're rare and pretty expensive these days. Similar in quality but not QUITE as good are the repressings in the 1200 series. Flimsier jackets, flimsier vinyl, and sound quality farther removed from the master tape, but they still sound pretty darn good. Most of 'em, anyway. I've got a 1200-series "Peter Pan" that I bought sealed but plays incredibly noisy. Go figure.
Maybe I should just create a website for Disney vinyl reviews complete with comparisons to CDs. Might be fun... hmm. In any event, to end this post on a high note, I'm gonna give a shout out to two of my FAVORITE Disney vinyls, the ones I always end up spinning over again. First is the Adventureland Steel Drum Band. This guys friggin' rule and the record sounds awesome. Second is the Jazz Minors. They played in New Orleans Square in the late 70s and early 80s, and they sound exactly how you'd expect them to sound (which is a good thing). Sound quality on the record is great as well. I stumbled upon this one by accident while eBaying "Disneyland Band."
EDIT: I keep forgetting to mention something about needledrops - ClickRepair (http://wwwmaths.anu.edu.au/~briand/sound/software_download/clickrepair_info.html) should be in everyone's toolbox. It's the best click/pop remover I've ever used. Just keep it on relativly low settings (I have mine set to Declick 15 Decrackle 0) or it'll start dulling the highs and eating percussion hits. Avoid the other tools on that site though - No NoNoise is Good NoNoise.
Most of the stuff I needledrop are pop/rock albums that have superior mastering on vinyl than on CD. I do love playing with Disney Records, though, especially the mono records in the 3000 and 4000 series (ie, the semi-rare awesome ones). I'm still trying to find an original "Walt Disney Takes You To Disneyland," because the shiny new copy that came with the Musical History of Disneyland is TERRIBLE. The vinyl is dead quiet, but the master they pressed the record with is digital and has been HEAVILY no-noised - side two in particular is riddled with digital artifacts and "fish-tankiness." I'd really like to see how an original copy from the 50s stacks up against it.
Vintage Disney vinyl often sounds killer, though. I loooooove the Epcot soundtrack. The Official Album of Disneyland and WDW is about half and half, though - you can tell it was pulled from a variety of sources (most probably copy tapes) because certain tracks sound terrible while others sound fantastic.
Since I'm being a negative nelly (praising things just isn't as much fun), Ovation's "The Magical Music of Walt Disney" *looks* awesome because it has some rare material, but - as the liner notes state - almost everything is taken from the original 35mm film for the movies, NOT from the masters for the music itself. So what you get is what you hear in the films themselves - the music sounds medicore (movie film is NOT high fidelity, as the Fantasia soundtrack aptly proves), and it comes complete with dialog and sound effects to boot. Ugh. If I wanted something that sounded like this, I could just record my DVDs - and they'd probably sound BETTER.
You should also avoid the picture discs that were pressed in the 80s, unless you're just a hardcore collector. They were electronically processed from mono into "fake stereo" and sound terrible. God forbid they just leave it as mono - if it was mastered that way, leave it that way. Lots of mono recordings kick serious booty. If you really want the classic soundtracks on vinyl, the heavy duty originals in the 4000 series are the way to go, but they're rare and pretty expensive these days. Similar in quality but not QUITE as good are the repressings in the 1200 series. Flimsier jackets, flimsier vinyl, and sound quality farther removed from the master tape, but they still sound pretty darn good. Most of 'em, anyway. I've got a 1200-series "Peter Pan" that I bought sealed but plays incredibly noisy. Go figure.
Maybe I should just create a website for Disney vinyl reviews complete with comparisons to CDs. Might be fun... hmm. In any event, to end this post on a high note, I'm gonna give a shout out to two of my FAVORITE Disney vinyls, the ones I always end up spinning over again. First is the Adventureland Steel Drum Band. This guys friggin' rule and the record sounds awesome. Second is the Jazz Minors. They played in New Orleans Square in the late 70s and early 80s, and they sound exactly how you'd expect them to sound (which is a good thing). Sound quality on the record is great as well. I stumbled upon this one by accident while eBaying "Disneyland Band."
EDIT: I keep forgetting to mention something about needledrops - ClickRepair (http://wwwmaths.anu.edu.au/~briand/sound/software_download/clickrepair_info.html) should be in everyone's toolbox. It's the best click/pop remover I've ever used. Just keep it on relativly low settings (I have mine set to Declick 15 Decrackle 0) or it'll start dulling the highs and eating percussion hits. Avoid the other tools on that site though - No NoNoise is Good NoNoise.
makeminemusic
Member
Trout, Your idea for a review of CD/Lp sounds cool! I just added an MP3 player on our NFFC Club site to highlight Disney vinyl. If you get a chance, come over to www.mountainears.org and click on the "Ears" Record Player.
Now playing:
Walt Disney Presents "A Natures Guide" DQ1300 about Birds, Bees, Beavers, and Bears
with songs and music from original sound tracks of True Life Adventures
as seen on Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color on NBC TV
Now playing:
Walt Disney Presents "A Natures Guide" DQ1300 about Birds, Bees, Beavers, and Bears
with songs and music from original sound tracks of True Life Adventures
as seen on Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color on NBC TV
The Trout
Member
You can do it that way. I know some people that still do. They just find spikes in the waveform or just plain listen by ear. Then you highlight the pop you find (I'm using Audition) and hit "Remove Transient." ClickRepair does a much more thorough job, though, without damaging the music itself. It's also far less time consuming.
I'll say, though, that ClickRepair seems to be an exception to the rule. Every other automatically declicker I've used (the one native to Adobe Audition, for example) does more harm that good. It'll take out things that are clicks yet still manage to leave actual clicks behind. Oy.
Oh, and MMM - I love that you're noting the catalog number of the records. They can sometimes make a huge difference and actually help in identifying different editions of the same content. Do you have "The Golden Age of Walt Disney Records?" It's an out of print book, but easily available on Amazon. It's pretty much the Disney vinyl collector's bible.
I'll say, though, that ClickRepair seems to be an exception to the rule. Every other automatically declicker I've used (the one native to Adobe Audition, for example) does more harm that good. It'll take out things that are clicks yet still manage to leave actual clicks behind. Oy.
Oh, and MMM - I love that you're noting the catalog number of the records. They can sometimes make a huge difference and actually help in identifying different editions of the same content. Do you have "The Golden Age of Walt Disney Records?" It's an out of print book, but easily available on Amazon. It's pretty much the Disney vinyl collector's bible.
makeminemusic
Member
Yes, I have Micheal's book, a wonderful resource. If you look down the list in the acknowlegdement's page you'll find me listed there (my 15 minutes of fame :
)
Gurgitoy2
Active Member
"Maybe I should just create a website for Disney vinyl reviews complete with comparisons to CDs. Might be fun... hmm."
That would be amazing! I've wanted to know that kind of information for ages, but realize it's time consuming. It would be pretty helpful though, especially for those who want the best sounding versions of things.
That would be amazing! I've wanted to know that kind of information for ages, but realize it's time consuming. It would be pretty helpful though, especially for those who want the best sounding versions of things.
The Trout
Member
I can say with full confidence that if there's a Randy-mastered CD of something, it's the best version available. That isn't just blowing smoke because he's on the forum sometimes, it's true. He presents that masters just as they sound, without goosing the EQ or using NoNoise to rob the recording of its life. I know some people hate tape hiss, but I take it as a sign of quality - Randy doesn't destroy the music for the sake of scrubbing the hiss. His CDs are some of the few digital versions of music that I'll take over the vinyl. (That said, I still refuse to buy off of iTunes. Come on, Randy - we NEED lossless audio!)
almandot
Member
There's still something very unsure in me about capturing 50 khz at 96khz. It's of course extremely good but if you're striving for perfection I'd think you'd get some odd samples mixed in there... 50khz or something like 100khz would seem more appropriate and then once it's digitally captured then do the downsample into 96, 48, or 44.1. 50 and 100 don't appear to be digital options though because they're not 44.1, 48, or those multiplied by 2
The Trout
Member
It's mostly an OCD thing. Higher bitrates like 96khz are, yes, far higher than vinyl actually produces (which is, like you say, 50khz - still higher than CDs, though arguably outside the range of the average human ear). But it does produce an indefinable "something" in my recordings sometimes. And - because of said OCD - I'd rather make sure I've capture EVERYTHING in the sound that miss one little thing.
This guy pretty much has it nailed - http://www.tweakheadz.com/16_vs_24_bit_audio.htm
24-bit is a MUST. Anything about 44.1khz is optional. But oversampling by recording to 96khz and sending it down to 44khz later can result in a slightly more accurate sound, since your software is likely better at downsampling that your recording hardware is.
This guy pretty much has it nailed - http://www.tweakheadz.com/16_vs_24_bit_audio.htm
24-bit is a MUST. Anything about 44.1khz is optional. But oversampling by recording to 96khz and sending it down to 44khz later can result in a slightly more accurate sound, since your software is likely better at downsampling that your recording hardware is.
almandot
Member
My point isn't that 96khz is much higher, that's fine to me. It's just that capturing at 96khz from a 50khz source is like dividing and getting a nonterminating decimal to me. 100khz would seem more "perfectionist."
It's like syncing audio to something running on a framerate. If you're running on 30 frames per second but using 44.1 khz audio, it's kind've hard to line up a bunch of key frames. Ideally you'll be running at 24 frames per second and using 48khz, because it divides evenly and audio packets will always be filling the matching frames evenly and you're never making sacrifices or relying on an algorithm to make the sacrifice for you. Capturing at 96khz from 50khz feels like the same thing to me even if on a much smaller fraction of error. Like I said, I'd think you'd want to capture 100khz samples/sec for that reason. Probably doesn't matter, but like I said we're ranting on perfectionism here I'm probably way off on this, I'm just looking at the numbers I realize that splitting up 50,000 samples per second into 96,000 samples per second is a lot more precise than fitting 44,100 samples per second into 30 frames.
It's like syncing audio to something running on a framerate. If you're running on 30 frames per second but using 44.1 khz audio, it's kind've hard to line up a bunch of key frames. Ideally you'll be running at 24 frames per second and using 48khz, because it divides evenly and audio packets will always be filling the matching frames evenly and you're never making sacrifices or relying on an algorithm to make the sacrifice for you. Capturing at 96khz from 50khz feels like the same thing to me even if on a much smaller fraction of error. Like I said, I'd think you'd want to capture 100khz samples/sec for that reason. Probably doesn't matter, but like I said we're ranting on perfectionism here
I'm probably way off on this, I'm just looking at the numbers I realize that splitting up 50,000 samples per second into 96,000 samples per second is a lot more precise than fitting 44,100 samples per second into 30 frames.
Huh?
Thank Zeus I tossed out my turntable in 1983! I purchased a Sony CDP-101 CD Player in the spring of 1983 ($1,000 MSRP! - an interesting Stereophile review can be found here)... I picked up a sweet little Sony D-50 CD Compact Player (the one that finally got people interested in digital audio) just in time for the Holidays in 1984... and I never looked back!
Now, if the record labels would just start releasing lossless encodes, instead of lossy MP3s and AAC files, I'd be happy to never look at another CD again, too!
The Trout
Member
I'm not sure the even math matters a whole lot, although my division is more or less even for my files - I record at 96/24 and downsample to 48/24, as at least THAT'S an even split.
And I think the 50khz that gets tossed around a lot for vinyl isn't an exact number anyway, given that it's an analog medium. It's like trying to apply a resolution to film - you could make a reasonably accurate estimate of what resolution 35mm film is, but applying digital terms to analog mediums just isn't going to be 100% accurate. So vinyl is technically capable of producing "around" 50khz, but does it actually produce less than that or more? Probably depends on the hardware and the record itself.
And I think the 50khz that gets tossed around a lot for vinyl isn't an exact number anyway, given that it's an analog medium. It's like trying to apply a resolution to film - you could make a reasonably accurate estimate of what resolution 35mm film is, but applying digital terms to analog mediums just isn't going to be 100% accurate. So vinyl is technically capable of producing "around" 50khz, but does it actually produce less than that or more? Probably depends on the hardware and the record itself.
The Trout
Member
So, several posts ago, I mentioned that the Adventureland Steel Drum Band album from 1976 was one of my favs. After I posted that, I decided to do a fresh needledrop of it and thought I'd share 1/12th of the wealth. Here's my favorite track on the album, sadly compressed into a 320kbps MP3 for the sake of download time. If posting this isn't kosher, let me know and I'll take it down. Just wanted to share. Personally, I think it sounds awesome. The hiss your hearing in the background, by-the-by, is NOT the vinyl. It's tape hiss inherent to the actual recording. In listening to the record, I could actually hear where the tape hiss dropped off and the vinyl noise began. Man, now THAT'S one quiet slab of vinyl! Anyway, here's the tune. (And no, I will not post the entire album. I'm pretty that'd break all KINDS of forum rules.)
http://rapidshare.de/files/40145108/A2_-_K...s_Song.mp3.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/40145108/A2_-_K...s_Song.mp3.html
musicradio77
Member
I have my Gemsound BJL-1150 turntable and my Webcor Maestro EP-1251 record player from the late 50's and it does work, the record player runs good, the reject switch does well, the record drops and it does have the original needle intact including the 4-speed switch like 16, 33, 45 and 78, but it still needs a speaker for the inside of a portable record player. I hope that I can get this stuff working after I can get the speaker install.
Miguel on two YouTube accounts like "damusician" and "vinylman86" has a series of videos of classic record players from the 1950's through the 1970's where you can play Disney albums.
1966 Arvin Convertible record player
1962 RCA Scholastic school record player
1962 Magnavox Portable record player with Micromatic
1972 GE portable blue record player
Miguel on two YouTube accounts like "damusician" and "vinylman86" has a series of videos of classic record players from the 1950's through the 1970's where you can play Disney albums.
1966 Arvin Convertible record player
1962 RCA Scholastic school record player
1962 Magnavox Portable record player with Micromatic
1972 GE portable blue record player
Although I have transferred my vinyl to CD (several crates of them) I do still retain the originals and still have (to me) a fairly modern player (1972). My earlier ones blew their valves and I was unable to obtain replacements for them as was the case for the styli (they didn't come with a cartridge then).
It's a Tandy (Radio Shack) special with inclusive tape deck (rubber band broken and needs replacing) and the speakers are huge (also has 16, 33+1/3, 45, and 78 rpm.
They do, however, give a far better sound than the modern stuff (IMHO) because the whole thing was designed for it - unlike today's players - and the makers of today's stuff don't remember what it used to sound like.
Although there are programs for recording 78s played at the slower speeds and then reconvert them to 78 rpm, I don't think they sound as good as the originals - and that scratching at the start and end is part of the nostalgia
If you can get a first-generation solid-state player (because valves are hard to find now) , do so and hear vinyl as it should sound.
I still rather enjoy stacking half a dozen LPs and letting them run.
It's a Tandy (Radio Shack) special with inclusive tape deck (rubber band broken and needs replacing) and the speakers are huge (also has 16, 33+1/3, 45, and 78 rpm.
They do, however, give a far better sound than the modern stuff (IMHO) because the whole thing was designed for it - unlike today's players - and the makers of today's stuff don't remember what it used to sound like.
Although there are programs for recording 78s played at the slower speeds and then reconvert them to 78 rpm, I don't think they sound as good as the originals - and that scratching at the start and end is part of the nostalgia
If you can get a first-generation solid-state player (because valves are hard to find now) , do so and hear vinyl as it should sound.
I still rather enjoy stacking half a dozen LPs and letting them run.