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the miceage.com cds?

Discussion in 'Archive' started by skoolpsyk, Jun 30, 2004.

  1. skoolpsyk

    skoolpsyk New Member

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    Has anyone read the most recnt article by Al on miceage.com?

    http://www.miceage.com/allutz/al062304b.htm


    If anyone knows where to get those cds, could you let me know?
    I searched on google and didn't find anything.

    my e-mail is:
    skoolpsyk@hotmail.com

    thanks!
     
  2. Zarpman

    Zarpman Member

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    They float around on usenet from time to time. Unofficial, yet very professional sounding. Check with your Internet access provider to ensure you have Usenet/Newsgroup access, and use a newsgroup reader (such as Microsoft Outlook Express) to read the forums.

    Your best bet is the group alt.binaries.multimedia.disney
     
  3. gatordoc

    gatordoc Member

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    There has been some unfortunate controversy lately, as some fool has tried to get the Disney lawyers onto the case of the guy who is doing these CDs. He really works hard on them, and does a great job. And as he has stated publically on many occasions (and I'm sure we would all agree), if Disney would just make this stuff available commercially so that we could all buy it, then he wouldn't need to do these sorts of things. I really hope the true Disney music lovers will continue to quietly support this guy's efforts, and that he won't let the idiots drive him into hiding.
     
  4. Dirk

    Dirk Member

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    There is one thing I would like to get some clarification about in this context:

    As far as I understood in the past the tracks ("CDs") Al Lutz mentioned are popping up on Usenet now and then, where fans who find them can download them. But in the e-mail that is cited by Al Lutz in his 06/29/04 update (which gatordoc refers to) it siad that the person who created the "CDs" was selling them.


    Let me point this out:

    Xopying music material that is not available from Disney or other legal sources is one thing - I don't want to get into the discussion about this being illegal / legal and the ethics of this behaviour. We have discussed this here to length.

    But actually selling this stuff is something totally different. I don't know wether these "CDs" were sold / are sold or wether it is just some unfortunate wording in the e-mail reprinted by Al Lutz. But even if the musical is not available from Disney there is NO excuse for obtaining it from other sources, doing some work to it (cleaning, compiling it for a CD, ...) and then selling it for a profit. If this was the case I fully support the action the "bad guy" (who sent Al Lutz the e-mail) has taken. There can be no question that this not only illegal but although unethical.


    Yours
    Dirk
     
  5. Steve LeVine

    Steve LeVine Member

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    As far as I know the person who made them is not selling them. If somebody else is selling then I agree they should be stopped
     
  6. gatordoc

    gatordoc Member

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    Sorry not to have been clear - I have no problem with going after people who SELL this stuff. However, it would be a shame to stop someone from posting it out there for free for people to enjoy (which is what I was referring to).
     
  7. SharonKurland

    SharonKurland Active Member

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    I have absolutely no qualms about obtaining "unreleased" audio material and giving it away for free. However I could see how Disney could have their panties in a bunch over it, since it's still their copyrighted material and they reserve the right to release it at a later date and having free copies all over the internet might affect their sales (*I* would definitely buy it if it was officially available and YOU might buy it too...but Joe Shmo might not).

    People are stupid...it should have been kept under wraps all along. What's the sense of there being an "underground" for this type of music, if the people on the ground (albeit on the ground with rectal-cranial inversions) know about it? No good can come of that at all. IMHO.

    -Sharon-
     
  8. Eddie Valiant

    Eddie Valiant New Member

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    I just want to comment on this for a second. While I don't presume to speak for the person(s) creating these CD's, I can say, quite categorically, that they are not selling them. I personally know the individual who did the POTC, HM, and Tiki Room CD's and he's done them as a labor of love for the fan community with no profit in mind. There are obviously those people who downloaded the music and then turned around and tried selling it on ebay and I agree that those efforts should be stopped. What the creators are doing is filling a void that Disney itself has left unfilled. I, like many here, would be more than willing to pay for this material if only Disney would offer it for sale.

    Eddie V.
     
  9. X-S Tech

    X-S Tech Active Member

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    If this guy isn't selling them, I wonder what he thinks about Miceage writing about them? It's not like they're giving him desperately needed advertisement or something. In fact it sounds like they blew his cover, though the article sounded like they just wanted to pat him on the back.

    OK and not to get into that ethical discussion that we're all trying to avoid (Bill and Dirk have said it all except...) isn't it Disney's right to sell or not sell whatever they choose? I love lines in that article like (paraphrasing):"If Disney would just release this material I wouldn't HAVE to do this sort of thing". It's clear folks, Disney's inability to satisfy every consumer all the time give's us permission to do it ourselves, regardless of copyright law. Doesn't that kind of logic pretty much make Copyright law obsolete?
     
  10. SharonKurland

    SharonKurland Active Member

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    > The Copyright law provides the owner of
    > said properties from 1) having other people
    > make a profit from their work and 2) having
    > other people claim such work is "theirs"
    > instead of the original authors.

    I thin it goes way beyond that. If that were the case, hundreds of people would be copying background music at WDW and giving it away on the internet, right? (tongue implanted firmly in cheek) But since no one is making a profit and because someone fully states "this BRM (don't leave out the 2nd letter! ) is from the Ladies Room at the Adventurers Club," what you said makes it sound legal because it's not stated to be illegal.

    I think the copyright laws also go into who has the "right to copy," profit notwithstanding. It's a permission issue, based on, as I said earlier, reserving the right to issue (or not issue!) official material.

    -Sharon-
     
  11. Grinning Ghost

    Grinning Ghost Member

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    I've done all the work on those "Unauthorized" CDs because what Disney has officially released was either crap, or incomplete or both. I created them primarily for myself, and I simply chose to share them with the Disney audio collecting community. I have never, nor will I ever attempt to sell them or otherwise make any kind of profit from them. However, there's nothing stopping others from downloading the tracks and selling CDs on eBay. I've seen several tracks I've worked on appear on eBay as "promotional" CDs and such, and Disney has yet to do anything about them. They're still being sold on eBay last I checked.

    GG
     
  12. SharonKurland

    SharonKurland Active Member

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    Bill-

    Just for the record, I did catch the sarcasm . Native New Yawka here . Also JFTR, I've learned something very important since moving to FL 4 years ago...southerners go into 2 categories when it comes to sarcasm...they either do not like it or (more often) they do not "get" it.

    Grinning Ghost-

    OK, you told us what you did. How do you feel about your distribution of it (without profit notwithstanding) being against the law or not, and/or copyright infringement or not? I'm sure you worked very hard on whatever it is and I'm sure they're ver well-done (I've personally never heard the audio)...but, from reading between the lines, it sounds like you feel you have the right to distribute them to other people, even if you don't have the copyright to the original works, yes? Just because nobody's told you to stop, does that make it OK? Do you take that to mean it's an implied consent?

    I'm not trying to be accusatory at all...in my case it would be the pot calling the kettle black, since I've recorded other things in my "past life" . But since YOUR material has seemed to grow like topsy, I'm wondering how to feel about the rightness and wrongness of it all.

    -sharon-
     
  13. Grinning Ghost

    Grinning Ghost Member

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    Sharon,

    I did these CDs because I could do a better job than Disney, and just felt like sharing them with those who might appreciate it. This sort of thing has been going on for decades amongst die-hard Disney collectors. The main difference is in how they are exchanged between collectors. It used to be that people would have to dup cassette copies and give them away to their friends, and mail them across country. Then those friends would dup copies, and so on. The only difference here is now they are exchanged as digital files or CDs, and it's now possible for them to reach a multitude at once, without seriously degrading the quality of the audio. Does that make it right or legal? No. Of course not, but for the most part, Disney has had a tendency to look the other way, as theme park music has been primarily a very tiny niche in the Disney music library. And it happens primarily between Disney fans and collectors, and they [Disney] don't seem to feel that they would make enough money on these kinds of projects to ever make a profit on them. Another thing to keep in mind: When searching for material for the Haunted Mansion 30th Anniversary CD, Disney turned to the fans to find bootlegged material that they themselves couldn't locate in their own vaults. Even the main ride-through on that "Official" CD wasn't actually produced by WDI, but rather a long-time Disneyland Park employee, Roberta Brubaker, who cobbled the track together from bootlegged material on her own a few years earlier. WDI merely did some filtering, made some minor changes to it and called it done. It was more or less considered a "fan tribute" to the ride. That's what I consider my work to be - merely a fan tribute. I would love to be able to pop into my local Wal-Mart and be able to buy this stuff, but of course, I can't, so I set out to do it myself and I did. If Disney wants to use any of my work on their official releases, they are more then welcome to, since they own the material anyway. I do it for my own personal use, and those who choose to download it can use it for their own personal use. What I don't agree with are those who try to sell it. Now that's just plain wrong. I was flattered that Mr. Lutz chose to feature the CDs in his column, but now I wish he hadn't. They're getting a tad too much attention now. The good news is that there isn't really anything left for me to work on. I've done all my favorite attractions now (as far as I can go with what I have to work with), and will probably not do any more after the Haunted Mansion 35th Anniversary, unless a goldmine of bootleg tracks from my favorites surface, which I highly doubt, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm done.

    GG

    "There's always... MY way!"
     
  14. CPNHOOK15

    CPNHOOK15 Member

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    Well GG, I have heard your stuff and I salute you. For anyone who hasn't heard it, you are missing out! It truly is amazing stuff. Nice job GG.

    My question is this, hopefully someone can clarify for my puny brain:

    Is there a difference between taking a picture of Cinderella's Castle, taking a video of Cinderella's Castle, or recording audio from the speaker inside Cinderella's Castle (if it is even still open?)? If you take that picture, video, or recording home... did you 'steal' it or violate a law? What happens when you make a copy of that picture, video, or recording for grandma & grandpa? Is there a difference between giving a copy to gramps compared to your neighbor?

    If it is wrong....why?
    If it isn't wrong .... why not?

    Seems to me they sell CD's, postcards, park video's, and the like.... and since somebody made that 'thing' in your picture/ video, just like someone made that audio you recorded, shouldnt it all violate some law if you didnt pay for it?

    Sincerely,
    Utterly confused & ticked that everything we want isnt readily available FOR PURCHASE...OFFICIALLY! ;O)

    aka Tim
     
  15. SharonKurland

    SharonKurland Active Member

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    GG-

    I guess my main concern is, you know it's copyrighted material and you're not supposed to distribute it because it's not your work (well, it is and it isn't your work...but I mean the BASIS for it, which, I would think, is still clearly Disney copyrighted material). And I guess that's where we differ. I've been known to audio or videotape things that were copyrighted material...even played around with it so that it sounded the best it could....BUT I don't distribute them. My taping them was probably just as much copyright infringement as yours...you're just maybe more wrong because not only did you infringe, you distributed. Your fine is gonna be bigger than mine, neener neener neener!

    CPNHOOK15-

    Very good question. My response is only my opinion and may or may not be based in the law since I don't know how the law is worded. But I think it all goes back to the distribution.

    Disney knows you're at a theme park and are going to videotape little Bobby & Cindy on the Carousel. They know that means you're going to wind up capturing their copyrighted characters, images, ambient music, etc., on tape (we don't have a digital camcorder yet, so...). They have to know because they DO specifically tell you when you're NOT allows to tape. I would BELIEVE that once you have the matieral, you can only legally make copies for youself, just as you're allowed to make copies of CDs only for your own (backup) usage. Distributing a copy to grandma is nice but I really question, from a purely legal standpoint, if it would be allowed (legally you can't give her a copy of your Beastie Boys CD either. not that she'd like it anyway ). And if that were the case, the friends would be in the same boat.

    However this isn't theme park home movies. This is specific audio material being obtained either by personal recording systems or straight from the master tapes. And once it's manipulated the way GG did, the quality is undoubtedly stuff that Disney COULD sell, if they chose to. Granted, tthey don't. However I don't think that automatically gives people the right to distribute them, with or without money being exchanged, because the bottom line is, the right to copy is still Disney's...and just because they haven't said, "don't do this" doesn't mean it should be done.

    IMHO

    -Sharon-
     
  16. X-S Tech

    X-S Tech Active Member

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    In answer to CpnHook15, to be illegal, what your duplicating/selling has to in some way infringe on Disney's ability to do the same thing. Let's say you are splicing together old home movies of, oh let's just say, "America Sings" (since it just turned 30) and you're selling them on ebay (absurd right?). Because of the lesser quality of a vacationer's home movie compared to professionally filmed material, you can make as many copies as you like sell them. You can't claim they are officially Disney, because use of the name itself is copyrighted. But having your home movies on teh market doesn't limit Disney's ability to sell a professional version if they so desire. That's my understanding at least of "Fair Use" in copyright law.
     
  17. 1313

    1313 Member

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    For goodness sake... copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans or short phrases. In some cases, these things may be protected as trademarks but that is not the case here.

    Without belaboring the obvious, copyright law is primarily civil law. If one violates copyright one would get sued not charged with a crime.

    Honestly...


    1313?
     
  18. skoolpsyk

    skoolpsyk New Member

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    what about the whole "club" system I'm seeing around now?
    For example, extinct-attractions-club.com and others..

    what they do is have dvds (which often include audio tracks of attractions) but they don't technically "sell" them.
    You join the club, and depending on the level of your membership they give them to you as a bonus.

    I know it's just kind of a sneeky way to get around it; but really it is just a club of enthusiasts exchanging their own home videos and audio...

    maybe the gg cds could be distributed that way?
     
  19. narkspud

    narkspud Member

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    The law has a lot to do with "what you can get away with." Disney has copyrighted (and/or trademarked, I forget which) the designs of most of the buildings on Disney property, and uses this to keep the Unofficial Guide books from publishing photos of the parks. Technically your copy to grandma is a violation of the same thing, but how could it possibly be in Disney's interest to sue you?

    Same deal with the GG compilations. They're a glaring copyright violation by any possible interpretation of the law, but Disney has no particular interest in sic-ing the legal dogs on him/her because of the way they're distributed and the fact that there's no money involved. Just because they can, doesn't mean they will or should.

    It's sort of the Disney equivalent of the anime fansubs that are brazenly passed around on the net--clear copyright violations, and the companies know about them, but they allow it to go on to maintain good relations with the fan community. (And to find out which titles they're interested in!) In exchange, there's a "code of ethics" that the fansubbers all voluntarily follow (no profits, and no more copies when a title gets licensed in the US).

    Now, folks who sell GG's CDs for a profit are a different category, and it IS in Disney's interest to make an example of them. And I really hope Al does shuddup about GG, for GG's sake. Too much publicity may force Disney to take some action, if only to appease the kooks at the RIAA.

    I am not a lawyer and the preceding does not constitute legal advice blah blah blah. Use caution, filling may be hot.
     
  20. SharonKurland

    SharonKurland Active Member

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    > I know it's just kind of a sneeky way to get
    > around it; but really it is just a club of
    > enthusiasts exchanging their own home
    > videos and audio...

    I know that some place like eBay wouldn't stand for it. That's not to say that bootlegs aren't all OVER eBay, in every way, shape and form. But in my past life, when I WAS selling blatant bootlegs of copyrighted/trademarked audio and video material (not Disney, BTW), I DID get slapped with a "stop selling these or we'll suspend your account" nastygram from eBay. So, wishing to keep my good standings, I stopped selling them on eBay (I just went underground )...but I still watched to see what the other sellers were doing and they had a lot of "buy this piece of crap and get THIS VIDEO for free as an added bonus" stuff. And then they all suddenly stopped.

    -Sharon-
     

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