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carousel of progress rumor kindof off topic

Discussion in 'Archive' started by cop4ever, Nov 22, 2004.

  1. cop4ever

    cop4ever Member

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    Can anyone tell me if the rumor i hear is true that the carousel of progress is closing forever in 2005. :'(
     
  2. disneyphilip

    disneyphilip Member

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    Don't listen to Jim Hill--he's wrong!

    Just about everything that he writes is opinions and a bunch of hogwash!

    Please just take what that guy says with a grain of salt and/or ignore him!

    The CoP is NOT going away for good any time in the future.
     
  3. CPNHOOK15

    CPNHOOK15 Member

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    For what its worth, I have been a longtime reader of Mr. Hills site. He is right a lot more than he's wrong. Kinda like some websites and a lot better than most. Sounds like someones got an axe to grind.
    In regards to CoP closing, who really knows until it happens, but if I was a betting man, I'd stick with Hill for the time being. Hey, things change.... problems get fixed, new ones arise.... so even when some of the online reporters are wrong, they were right when they reported it.
     
  4. Tink

    Tink Member

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    Which is exactly what Jim Hill said. Jim Hill certainly may not be 100% perfect with his information. And he pissed of a lot of people with his less than positive opinions about "Save Disney." But he's more connected than most of us...

    Give the guy a break- he's only human.

    The Tink
     
  5. SharonKurland

    SharonKurland Active Member

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    I stopped reading Jim Hill years and years ago. It wasn't so much what he said, but his writing style that irked me. I think my husband said it best. "Al Lutz and Jim Hill write the same types of things. The big difference is that while Al writes as a Disney fan who desperately wants things to go right, Jim writes as someone who enjoys watching them do things wrong."

    Nope, just not my cup of tea.
     
  6. CPNHOOK15

    CPNHOOK15 Member

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    It never ceases to amaze me how the written word can cause sooooooooo many problems when it comes to interpretation by the reader. I cant count the number of times I have read people bashing Al for not being a Disney fan, or people praising Jim for being one. As you point out Sharon, both Al and Jim write basically the same thing... so as long as the facts are correct, why take the opinions so seriously?
    In my own humble opinion, both of these guys really care about the Mouse. Period. I think they wish they could have sites more like MousePlanet (which I like too) where everything seems to be fine at Disney, regardless of whats going on. But the facts are that, until recently, things aint been going well.
    As far as the SaveDisney thing.... c'mon, I think we all know that they have done some good things, and we all know they have missed some GOLDEN opportunities. I pray every night that they succeed, but I have shaken my head at their actions (and inactions) several times. Why is constructive criticism wrong? If its because its pointed at something we love.... well then the problem aint with the guy saying it, but the person hearing it.
    I do think we have to give these guys a little slack sometimes too. They report on this stuff almost everyday. Just like the rest of us they get frustrated and may need to vent, or say I told you so. And dont forget sometimes they have info that they CANT share... how frustrating is that?! Heck, sometimes I root for Disney to fail because then I hope they will take the appropriate actions once they tried it there own boneheaded (read: cost efficient) way.

    Look at this site. How many times do we bash disney for its mistakes or lack of effort in regards to music? Yet we know we LOVE disney music, and only want it to succeed. Why cant that be true for them in regards to the parks?

    I guess what Im trying to say is, support ALL these DIsney sites, take all the good you can from them, ignore the opinions you disagree with, and ALWAYS feel free to offer them constructive citicism when you feel the need.
    Just dont go around bashing them on other sites.

    The funny thing to me is, as Tink pointed out, sometimes people miss the message just because they have such a dislike for the person writing it.

    Tim
     
  7. FRAN?OIS

    FRAN?OIS Member

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    Wow! What a wise "message" Tim!

    I do support your views that help us put things into perspectives!
    Criticism should always be constructive otherwise.... it's Politics!

    Thank you for taking time to share such a balanced and fair opinion!

    "Everyone's a critic" sometimes seems so true! :)
     
  8. Eric

    Eric Member

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    To join in the mud slinging fest (haha, jk :) ) I'd like to add in my two cents about Mr. Lutz and Jim Hill.

    I, too, stopped reading both of their blabberings (for a lack of a better word). True, they both care one way or the other about Disney, however the style in which they get their message across (IMO) is often brash, arrogant, and condescending. It's painfully obvious, as well, that they each have their own agenda (not tied to Disney, however), but rather to make them feel like bona-fide jounalists, when in reality they are nothing but a joke.

    Jim Hill will get relevant information (and sometimes extremely interesting info as well), but then will appear to stretch it in whatever way possible to fit it to however he is feeling (or to whatever point he wants to make) and then make rather interesting predictions on what is going to happen and state them as matter-of-fact. When it all comes down to it, how many times has Jim Hill been right, or more importantly, how many times has Mr. Hill predicted something major that has happened at one of the parks?

    Mr. Lutz's problem is that rather than post news updates, he throws in his two cents too many times. He hasn't quite understood the process of separating fact from opinion (not that there's anything wrong with writing your opinion...but it's best to separate it from reporting on the "news") and the way in which he writes his opinion is in that "know-it-all" fashion...well Al, if you are so knoweldgeable on how to run a theme park flawlessly, why hasn't somebody hired ya yet? lol.

    It's for those reasons, that I tend to read elsewhere. Again, each gentleman mentioned does have some interesting information to share, but it's how they do it and how they present it and themselves that turns me away.
     
  9. Dirk

    Dirk Member

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    More OT posting...

    Hey they, Hi there, Ho there,

    as a member of team behind a website covering the Disneyland Resort Paris I have to enter my two cents on this discussion too.

    I think both, Al Lutz and Jim Hill, are journalists in their own right - wether one would say good journalists is a different question that everybody will answer differently. But what they definitely are, is market-oriented bussinesmen. They both have realized that the market for Disney-sites is crowded.

    There are several sites which have filled the spot of news-delivering-fan-oriented all around websites:

    DL: Laughing Place, mouseplanet, ...
    WDW: WDWmagic, mouseplanet, ...
    DLRP: DLP.info , dlrpmagazine.com, ...

    When the two of them had to found a website that was able to attract a decent amount of guests (which is what every webmaster and journalists wants as know one wants to work for just one or two readers) there were two choices: start a long, uphill battle to unseat the reigning "champions" (very, very difficult, you need to be faster, better and get the community of the boards to move) or do something different.

    As the reigning "champions" did report news but as fan-oriented tended to emphasize the good news the opening was obvious: bringing the news but emphasizing the critic plus adding a lot of insider stuff (if possible) which the other sides had at a lesser scope.

    Al Lutz went for the harsh critic and established himself with that very well, whily Jim Hill went for the literature-style, very eloquent critic hidden deep in long articles trying to add details and depth.

    Both of them are more or less unique in what they do and both of them know it. Once they had established their style they are now playing to the audience. Meaning: what ever they write / publish is twisted to fit the form the audience expects from them and that sets them apart from the other websites.

    This is just natural and just normal. Every player in the game builds up some characteristics and will emphasize those once he is aware of them as he knows those visiting his site do want these. Because it is what made him "big".


    Al Lutz and Jim Hill carter to their audience, which likes their style, just as we at DLP.info certainly do too or the team of LaughingPlace does.

    At some degree it shows the abilitiy of a journalist how far he is possible to twist a story to fit it to his market, to the style the audience expects. And both Al Lutz and Jim Hill are good at it.


    Yours
    Dirk
     
  10. CPNHOOK15

    CPNHOOK15 Member

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    Thanks for the response Eric and Dirk. Good points to everyone. And thanks Francios for the compliments.

    My question is as follows: Since when have either Jim Hill or Al Lutz been a 'news only' site?

    Answer: Never. At least not in my history with them. So why do people get mad when they arent 'news only'?

    Makes no sense to me at all.

    Like Dirk said, they have a twist, or 'flavor' (which is how I like to think of it) which adds to the simple facts of the story. How boring would it be if we only got the Date, Time, and Place of every event that happened at the Parks? If we were lucky maybe a list of who's there too. I dont know about you but that would bore me to death.

    My analogy to this is the sports page. Would you rather have only the box score to look at, or read a story about the game?


    Another of my observations and problems with the criticism of these two gentlemen is this: Just because you disagree with someone doesnt make them wrong... it just means they see it different than you. Live with it.

    Also, I think most of us assume we could do a better job running Disney than Disney (most of the time at least). These guys just happen to say it out loud for thousands (or more... or less, I dunno) of people to read. That leaves them open to attack. Is that fair? (shrug)

    I also think we ALL have an agenda, whether we know it or not. I will forever be outraged that America Sings is gone (and dont even ask me about Knott's Berry Tales, but that is another story altogether)... so I will never like Innoventions or probably anything else in that location. It aint right, but its true. Everyone likes and dislikes certain things. Again, this doesnt make anyone right or wrong or a blabbering idiot, or whatever. It just makes us people with opinions.

    I actually took a journalism class, not that you would know it from my writing on here mind you, and something they teach you is this: Unless you are just going to report facts (Date, Time, Place) the mark of a good journalist is to add texture... to give people an impression, to spark thought and debate.... to try to make someone care about what you wrote. They can do this by agreeing with your point of view OR by disagreeing with it. This does not include missleading or lying to the reader.

    I do think that their opinions are based on facts, and that is all you can ask.

    Okay, Im gonna climb down from my soapbox now. Thanks for listening.

    Tim
     
  11. Eric

    Eric Member

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    Al Lutz started out as news only, or at least that was the format that was apparent when he started Mouseplanet/the Disneyland Info Guide. Again, my problem isn't with his opinion per se, but rather how he presents it. He hasn't quite mastered the feat in journalism when you are able to eloquently and respectfully report your opinion so that others can enjoyably read it and then make up their mind. He way too often states his opinion as matter-of-fact, and it's at that point where he loses me as a reader.

    But pick up a copy of the sports section and read how those articles are written. They are carefully crafted so as not to blatantly post opinions while still making it extremely interesting. Back in the day, when I took some classes in journalism (thinking I was going to be a journalist..then realizing it paid nothing..lol), the hardest assignments were always the Sports articles because it was a challenge not to make it sound like a blatant editorial.

    I couldn't agree more with ya, however I don't think Al Lutz or Jim Hill see it that way, hence why people often are turned off by their articles. They state their opinion as matter-of-fact and feel that they are the final and only say in the matter. At least that's the feeling that one often gets when reading their articles. Very few times have I seen either one of them conceded or make the disclaimer that they *could* be wrong.

    I guess my opinions on these two Disney fans are only further backed up by the supposed Drama they created internally, to the point where they splitted off forming different websites due to disagreements/arguments, and several regular column writers of Mouseplanet leaving for "competiting" websites due to their disgust or disagreements with Al or others. I mean, c'mon, it's just Disney...it's not serious stuff here..lol, since when does a Disney website spark so much drama and disagreement between others? ???

    Anyway, I promise I'll end it here :)
     
  12. SharonKurland

    SharonKurland Active Member

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    I know darn well that my opinion on Hill or Lutz doesn't matter one whit. Neither of them know who I am (though I've had more than one face-to-face conversation with Jim, before he became, if you will, "famous"), nor do I think will they in the future, NOR do I think either of them will ever CARE about my opinion.

    That's fine .

    If people like one or the other or both, more power to them. Ours is a country where people have freedom of speech and, with that, freedom to read what they wish. I've made my choice; you've made yours and each is best for each of us.

    Nothing wrong with that. Live and let live .

    -Sharon-
     
  13. CPNHOOK15

    CPNHOOK15 Member

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    I couldnt agree with you more Sharon.

    I guess what irks me is when people use their 'freedom of speech' to bash others whenever they wish. Now Im not saying that you did this, but disneyphilip did (IMO).

    One of the bad things about being able to post on the internet is people can hide behind their screen, from the safety of home. This enables them to say things that normally nobody would ever say in person.

    Sometimes I wish everyone who posted anything on the net had to sign it with their real name. That would shut most people up I think. Or at least hold them accountable for what they post.

    (sigh) oh well, something else to add to my list of things to do when Im president.

    Tim
     
  14. SharonKurland

    SharonKurland Active Member

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    Tim-

    > Sometimes I wish everyone who posted anything on the
    > net had to sign it with their real name. That would shut
    > most people up I think. Or at least hold them accountable
    > for what they post.

    Or not . I posted under my legal name, Sharon Kurland, from when I got my first computer (1984) until I got married (2002). And look what a mess I've made of this world .

    -Sharon-
     
  15. disneyphilip

    disneyphilip Member

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    You just offended me!:mad:

    DON'T DO THAT! You just hurt my feelings...I'll have you know that I'm EXTREMELY sensitive, so please don't mess with me! :mad: :'(

    Now, please end this debate before we all get mad at each other.
     
  16. SharonKurland

    SharonKurland Active Member

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    Um...no offense intended but I think the only person who is getting mad is you.

    I don't know what you have against Jim Hill but you message did specifically say:

    > Don't listen to Jim Hill--he's wrong! Just about
    > everything that he writes is opinions and a bunch
    > of hogwash! Please just take what that guy says
    > with a grain of salt and/or ignore him!

    Well, without any type of proof that he's wrong or says things that are hogwash, you're the one who is looking a little foolish. Saying that you don't like someone's writing style is one thing...to make claims about someone without anything to back it up is defamatory to Jim's reputation. No, you didn't impose on his freedom of speech, but I bet you didn't realize that what you said would be considered slander, huh?

    > l'll have you know that I'm EXTREMELY sensitive, so
    > please don't mess with me!

    You realize that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, right? I think you'll find throughout the course of your life that very few people will be willing to accomodate to your being easily defended. Some kind-hearted or co-dependent people will, but they won't even be close to the majority. I think the person who might need to do the most changing is you. It takes pretty thick skin to survive in this world today. I wish you the best of luck in adding a few layers of epidermis to your persona .

    -Sharon-
     

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